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Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by pdonis on Thursday June 30, 2022 @03:11PM (#31937136)
> Congress intended to grant the EPA broad authority to regulate pollution

CO2 is not pollution. People and animals breathe it out. Plants breathe it in. Any such thing is obviously not pollution. The EPA calling it "pollution" does not make it pollution, any more than calling a dog's tail a leg makes it a leg.

If Congress wants to grant the EPA authority to regulate things that are obviously not pollution, in order to promote some other policy objective, it needs to say so explicitly. Which is exactly what the Court's opinion says.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by scarmig on Thursday June 30, 2022 @03:15PM (#31937194)
None of the parties or judges dispute that CO2 is a pollutant.

Even if you personally dispute it, Congress explicitly granted the EPA the authority to determine what's an air pollutant and what's not:

> For the purpose of establishing national primary and secondary ambient air quality standards, the Administrator shall within 30 days after December 31, 1970, publish, and shall from time to time thereafter revise, a list which includes each air pollutant—emissions of which, in his judgment, cause or contribute to air pollution which may reasonably be anticipated to endanger public health or welfare;

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by pdonis on Thursday June 30, 2022 @03:25PM (#31937304)
> None of the parties or judges dispute that CO2 is a pollutant.

The fact that all of the parties and judges are calling a tail a leg, still doesn't make it a leg.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by scarmig on Thursday June 30, 2022 @03:40PM (#31937532)
You should feel free to decide that a leg is actually a liver; that just makes you silly. As far as the matter at hand goes, though, it's the EPA that has the authority to make that designation (at least until the SCOTUS decides that only it has that authority).
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by pdonis on Thursday June 30, 2022 @03:59PM (#31937786)
> it's the EPA that has the authority to make that designation (at least until the SCOTUS decides that only it has that authority).

And the SCOTUS has the authority to rule on whether the EPA's rulemaking is within its statutory authority or not. Which is what it did today. So why are you objecting? Both governmental entities are exercising their authority. The fact that one such exercise, the EPA's, is one you like, and the other such exercise, the Court's is one you don't like, is irrelevant, according to your own logic, just as it's irrelevant, according to your own logic, that the EPA's rule under review here defies logic, common sense, and the plain meaning of words.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by scarmig on Thursday June 30, 2022 @04:26PM (#31938118)
Bit of a sleight of hand there: you were arguing first that this court case was about whether CO2 was a pollutant or not, and I simply pointed out that there was nobody arguing it wasn't and all agreed that the EPA had the authority to designate it as such, as opposed to your "pollution is whatever pdonis feels in his gut is pollution" standard.

So, sure, I'm criticizing the Court's decision, because it's an incoherent and ideologically motivated decision. Doing so helps remove the mystique of the SCOTUS justices as some kind of apolitical actors in the sytem.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by pdonis on Thursday June 30, 2022 @04:45PM (#31938376)
> Bit of a sleight of hand there

No, you are the one who shifted your ground, not me. You started out arguing that calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one--but you only applied that argument (incorrectly, in my opinion, but that's beside the present point) to the SCOTUS decision you didn't like, not to the EPA rulemaking you liked. Then, when I called you on it, you retreated to the argument that the EPA is just exercising its authority--which applies just as much to SCOTUS. So make up your mind: are you going to base your position on actual logic, common sense, and the plain meaning of words, or on government entities exercising their authority no matter what?

> I'm criticizing the Court's decision, because it's an incoherent and ideologically motivated decision.

I disagree that it is, since it's just pointing out that Congress didn't intend to delegate to the EPA the sweeping authority to restructure the entire energy sector of the economy, even if we accept that CO2 is a "pollutant" for the sake of argument. The statute does not give the EPA authority to regulate pollutants however it wants. It only gives it the authority to do so in certain ways.

That said, however, I'm criticising the EPA's rulemaking on the same grounds that you are criticizing the SCOTUS decision: that it's incoherent and ideologically motivated. Any such criticism presupposes that just because a government entity has the formal authority to do something, doesn't make it right. So it is no answer to my criticism to say that the EPA was just exercising its authority.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by robonerd on Thursday June 30, 2022 @03:37PM (#31937482)
> CO2 is not pollution. People and animals breathe it out.

Suppose I piss in your drink. Have I polluted it, or will you drink it?

'It's not pollution if it comes out of animals' doesn't make much sense.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by pdonis on Thursday June 30, 2022 @04:00PM (#31937799)
> 'It's not pollution if it comes out of animals' doesn't make much sense.

That's not the argument I was making. The argument I was making is that the presence of CO2 in the atmosphere is part of a natural process that all living organisms, including us humans, engage in. The presence of your piss in my drink is not.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by scarmig on Thursday June 30, 2022 @04:23PM (#31938069)
Animals exhale many volatile organic compounds when they exhale, including methanol and acetone. Does that mean those compounds are by definition not pollution?
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by pdonis on Thursday June 30, 2022 @04:49PM (#31938423)
Are those compounds present because they come from the animal's metabolism, or just because they happened to be there in the environment and the animal inhaled or ingested them?
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by scarmig on Thursday June 30, 2022 @05:05PM (#31938594)
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by pdonis on Thursday June 30, 2022 @05:49PM (#31939084)
My understanding is that ketones produced by this process normally get excreted in the urine, not by being exhaled.

That said, since these are products of the animal's metabolism, I would not consider them pollution if they're just being exhaled into the surrounding air outdoors. If you bring your animal into my climate controlled clean room and have it exhale the compounds there, that would be different--but I doubt the EPA would be the first line of defense in regulating behavior of that sort.