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Re:Technology is not values neutral by mschuster91 on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @10:38AM (#31920773)
> It's possible that some new technology - AI-assisted robotic automation in particular - could have a similar societal impact by eliminating many jobs and concentrating wealth in the hands of the owners of the manufacturing lines, although this would seem to be a self-defeating outcome as fewer people would be able to purchase the output.

We are already seeing this outcome. About 2/3 (!) of Americans live paycheck to paycheck [1], 56% of Americans have less than 1000$ in liquid savings for emergencies [2]. In Europe, the situation is better because we have somewhat decent social safety nets, but not that much (e.g. in Germany, thanks to inflation, record numbers of people depend on charities like food banks [6] which are essentially funded by donations from large supermarket chains).

At the same time, a lot of the largest employers [3] in the US - especially Amazon, Target and Walmart - stand to benefit massively from automation gains... meaning that a lot of their staff will be made redundant as technology improves. Amazon is continuously investing in warehouse automation to replace human "pickers", and supermarket chains are investing in automation e.g. to spot spills [4] or monitor shelves for stuff out of stock [5].

Individual companies are not to blame for this per se: capitalism incentivizes a company to reduce costs wherever possible. The answer to the resulting shift of profits and wealth, however, must be in politics - and to be honest, if the wealth gap keeps rising with people like Bezos or Musk being worth hundreds of billions of dollars each while the 99% lose their homes and die because they can't afford basic medicine like insulin, if politics don't do anything, social unrest will only keep growing. Occupy Wall Street, the 2016 election of the 45th, French Yellow Vest protests - they all were, at their core, protests against this wealth disparity, against the effective neo-feudalism towards which we have devolved.

And to make the situation even worse than it already is: taxpayers worldwide will have to pay down the enormous bills from COVID relief debt and investments to combat climate change (e.g. constructing new power grids and renewable-energy plants), the followup costs of the Russian invasion in Ukraine and potentially a third world war - but there is no sign at all in any Western country that the rich will pay their fair share for all this crap.

[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/11/two-thirds-of-americans-live...

[2] https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/19/56percent-of-americans-cant-...

[3] https://largest.org/misc/employers-usa/

[4] https://mashable.com/article/stop-and-shop-marty-robots

[5] https://www.roboticsbusinessreview.com/retail-hospitality/5-...

[6] https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/situation-tafeln-101.html

Re:Technology is not values neutral by fatherzine on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @01:23PM (#31923111)
"eliminating many jobs and concentrating wealth in the hands of the owners of the manufacturing lines, although this would seem to be a self-defeating outcome as fewer people would be able to purchase the output."

Modern economic theory is a fig leaf over the raw reality of resource allocation. A better fig leaf than most, but still a fig leaf. In particular, there are many macro metastable equilibrium points, post-WW2 middle-class America being the exception rather than the rule. Fewer people, true, but with vastly higher purchase power than the masses.

Re:Technology is not values neutral by philwelch on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @01:47PM (#31923438)
> About 2/3 (!) of Americans live paycheck to paycheck [1], 56% of Americans have less than 1000$ in liquid savings for emergencies [2].

Considering how high American incomes tend to be compared to the rest of the world, this seems like a culture of spendthrift irresponsibility.

Re:Technology is not values neutral by mschuster91 on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @02:21PM (#31923863)
American incomes - particularly in tech - sound so high for the rest of the world, but Americans have to account for healthcare expenses, pension contributions, "emergency funds" when you are out sick for longer time than the pittances most companies offer as "PTO", the insane housing costs, car payment and taxes on them.

Meanwhile, the rest of the developed Western world has the government provide healthcare, pension systems, actual sick time that also accounts for longer periods, public transport so you can get away without a car...

Re:Technology is not values neutral by philwelch on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @05:03PM (#31925681)
Right, which means on top of lower incomes, people in "the rest of the developed Western world" also pay higher taxes. And yet they still somehow have higher savings rates.

It's a cultural issue.

Re:Technology is not values neutral by mbrodersen on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @10:02PM (#31927988)
The wealth distributions are different. For example, minimum pay is higher in other western nations. The richest people are richer in the US but the poor people are poorer. So depending on how you cherry pick incomes/wealth you can show whatever you want. I personally care more about how a nation treats its poor than how wealthy the most wealthy people are. But YMMV of course.
Re:Technology is not values neutral by philwelch on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @10:41PM (#31928232)
If you measure by median household income, the US is towards the top. So when you see a statistic that says more than 50% of US households live paycheck to paycheck, that’s a choice, because the median US household doesn’t have to live paycheck to paycheck.
Re:Technology is not values neutral by mbrodersen on Thursday June 30, 2022 @02:17AM (#31929193)
Yep its the same in other rich western countries. People spend more than they earn and have very little financial literacy. If they put 10% aside every month and invested wisely their long term financial situation would be dramatically better. But it requires longer term thinking. Not a common trait.
Re:Technology is not values neutral by mschuster91 on Thursday June 30, 2022 @08:20AM (#31931468)
> If they put 10% aside every month and invested wisely their long term financial situation would be dramatically better.

To use a 200 year old quote: "They should eat cakes instead".

Someone with absolutely no money to spare absolutely cannot set aside 10% of their income - and even if they manage to do so, it's all one healthcare or other emergency away from being wiped out.

Re:Technology is not values neutral by mbrodersen on Friday July 01, 2022 @08:50PM (#31954906)
That’s obvious of course. If you have no money then you can’t invest for the future. However the majority of people living in rich western countries most definitely can put 10% or even 20% aside every month by lowering the living standards accordingly.
Re:Technology is not values neutral by philwelch on Thursday June 30, 2022 @01:02PM (#31935392)
Someone making the median household income in the US can absolutely afford to set aside 10% of their income.