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Re:Technology is not values neutral by photochemsyn on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @10:10AM (#31920342)
The economist Ha-Joon Chang noted that the spread of domestic household technology, such as washing machines, piped gas, refrigerators etc. has had a more dramatic effect on human social organization than the internet and computers have had (as of ~2010 or so). The role of domestic servants was essentially eliminated as a result, and women who'd traditionally served in that role were able to find employment outside the home as a result (which also created the daytime child care industry).

The first automatic washing machines were introduced in the USA in 1937; a decade later women played important roles in wartime manufacturing during WWII, and by 1970 universities like Caltech finally opened their doors to female students.

It's possible that some new technology - AI-assisted robotic automation in particular - could have a similar societal impact by eliminating many jobs and concentrating wealth in the hands of the owners of the manufacturing lines, although this would seem to be a self-defeating outcome as fewer people would be able to purchase the output. An alternative result would be something like an average 30-hr work week with no change in economic earnings for the vast majority of people.

Re:Technology is not values neutral by tablespoon on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @10:16AM (#31920435)
> could have a similar societal impact by eliminating many jobs and concentrating wealth in the hands of the owners of the manufacturing lines, although this would seem to be a self-defeating outcome as fewer people would be able to purchase the output

Not necessarily. It could enable a more radical reversion to something like a palace economy, where political and economic power are fully concentrated into an elite and away from the people, who are then made dependent on gifts from those elites for survival and comfort.

People nowadays concentrate on money like it's something fundamental, but it isn't (e.g. Putin can be richer and more powerful than all of us, without owning a kopeck). Money is only a proxy for prestige and power in our current social system, and other systems are possible.

Re:Technology is not values neutral by yeaso9 on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @01:55PM (#31923552)
You mean like now when inequality has been trending up in leaps and bounds for years, authoritarian story mode leadership forces it’s preferences on the public, and their whims change every 4-8 years, and the public does nothing but kowtow and pander to elderly people who can’t remember anything?

Musk and co are not suffering.

This culture is a joke. None of us are going to Mars and the beyond but we’re setting us and ours aside for another high minded story about forever human prosperity and growth. Nevermind no science allows for humans to live among the stars. Every frame of reference so far as only seen them tightly coupled to Earth.

It’s clear human biology is capable of a philosophy that diverges wildly from reality. No reason at all to see this period in human society, and the people that make it up, as any less susceptible to propaganda and any more capable of their forever stories than the ancient Greeks.

They may not be spewing the syntax of religion, but the semantic meaning demanded by the powers that be are no different; kowtow to the visions and hallucinations of the almighty.

Re:Technology is not values neutral by wahern on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @05:59PM (#31926207)
Money does have a critical characteristic: fungibility, its defining technological function. Putin stays in power primarily by redistributing kopecks. But unlike, say, land, kopecks are fungible; this moderates and limits his power. People can flee with kopecks. People can transfer kopecks to others without Putin's knowledge or say-so, manipulating social networks beyond Putin's direct control. The power of modern authoritarians is in many ways much more precarious and circumscribed than in earlier eras.

This precariousness is compounded by international trade, making the value of kopecks at least partly dependent on economic performance. (In a perfectly insular economy, Putin would have much more control over kopecks, including fungibility, but you can't regress to such insularity without destroying most wealth in the country.)

Notably, Putin has plenty of kopecks stashed overseas, presumably partly out of concern for the precariousness of his situation, or at least that of his family's fortunes.

Money isn't power, per se. Control over social media isn't power, per se. Voting isn't power, per se. But it's difficult to discuss power without discussing the mediums by which it's exercised and allotted. In particular, power exercised through one medium might not be readily transferred to another medium.

Re:Technology is not values neutral by car_analogy on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @03:04PM (#31924379)
> The first automatic washing machines were introduced in the USA in 1937; a decade later women played important roles in wartime manufacturing during WWII, and by 1970 universities like Caltech finally opened their doors to female students.

I don't know why you picked Caltech specifically, but even confining ourselves to the US, women could attend university much earlier - a few examples from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_women's_education:

1831: As a private institution in 1831, Mississippi College became the first coeducational college in the United States to grant a degree to a woman. In December 1831 it granted degrees to two women, Alice Robinson and Catherine Hall.

1855: University of Iowa becomes the first coeducational public or state university in the United States.

1866: Sarah Jane Woodson Early became the first African-American woman to serve as a professor. Xenia, Ohio's Wilberforce University hired her to teach Latin and English in 1866.

1870: The Board of Regents of the University of California ruled that women should be admitted on an equal basis with men. With the completion of North and South Halls in 1873, the university relocated to its Berkeley location with 167 male and 22 female students.

Re:Technology is not values neutral by unity1001 on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @10:06PM (#31928010)
> AI-assisted robotic automation in particular - could have a similar societal impact by eliminating many jobs and concentrating wealth in the hands of the owners of the manufacturing lines

"will" is an unnecessary word. That started happening with the electronics revolution in 1970s triggering the robotics revolution and automating factories. That's the reason for increasing wealth concentration. Which, the Western governments tried to combat by floating the economy on debt. That blew up in 2008. So here we are, living the aftermath of the crash of capitalism that Marx said would happen due to increasing technology and automation putting majority of people out of work and there remaining no way for them to buy the products that the economy produces, putting the economy into a crisis.

Re:Technology is not values neutral by mschuster91 on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @10:38AM (#31920773)
> It's possible that some new technology - AI-assisted robotic automation in particular - could have a similar societal impact by eliminating many jobs and concentrating wealth in the hands of the owners of the manufacturing lines, although this would seem to be a self-defeating outcome as fewer people would be able to purchase the output.

We are already seeing this outcome. About 2/3 (!) of Americans live paycheck to paycheck [1], 56% of Americans have less than 1000$ in liquid savings for emergencies [2]. In Europe, the situation is better because we have somewhat decent social safety nets, but not that much (e.g. in Germany, thanks to inflation, record numbers of people depend on charities like food banks [6] which are essentially funded by donations from large supermarket chains).

At the same time, a lot of the largest employers [3] in the US - especially Amazon, Target and Walmart - stand to benefit massively from automation gains... meaning that a lot of their staff will be made redundant as technology improves. Amazon is continuously investing in warehouse automation to replace human "pickers", and supermarket chains are investing in automation e.g. to spot spills [4] or monitor shelves for stuff out of stock [5].

Individual companies are not to blame for this per se: capitalism incentivizes a company to reduce costs wherever possible. The answer to the resulting shift of profits and wealth, however, must be in politics - and to be honest, if the wealth gap keeps rising with people like Bezos or Musk being worth hundreds of billions of dollars each while the 99% lose their homes and die because they can't afford basic medicine like insulin, if politics don't do anything, social unrest will only keep growing. Occupy Wall Street, the 2016 election of the 45th, French Yellow Vest protests - they all were, at their core, protests against this wealth disparity, against the effective neo-feudalism towards which we have devolved.

And to make the situation even worse than it already is: taxpayers worldwide will have to pay down the enormous bills from COVID relief debt and investments to combat climate change (e.g. constructing new power grids and renewable-energy plants), the followup costs of the Russian invasion in Ukraine and potentially a third world war - but there is no sign at all in any Western country that the rich will pay their fair share for all this crap.

[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/11/two-thirds-of-americans-live...

[2] https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/19/56percent-of-americans-cant-...

[3] https://largest.org/misc/employers-usa/

[4] https://mashable.com/article/stop-and-shop-marty-robots

[5] https://www.roboticsbusinessreview.com/retail-hospitality/5-...

[6] https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/situation-tafeln-101.html

Re:Technology is not values neutral by fatherzine on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @01:23PM (#31923111)
"eliminating many jobs and concentrating wealth in the hands of the owners of the manufacturing lines, although this would seem to be a self-defeating outcome as fewer people would be able to purchase the output."

Modern economic theory is a fig leaf over the raw reality of resource allocation. A better fig leaf than most, but still a fig leaf. In particular, there are many macro metastable equilibrium points, post-WW2 middle-class America being the exception rather than the rule. Fewer people, true, but with vastly higher purchase power than the masses.

Re:Technology is not values neutral by philwelch on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @01:47PM (#31923438)
> About 2/3 (!) of Americans live paycheck to paycheck [1], 56% of Americans have less than 1000$ in liquid savings for emergencies [2].

Considering how high American incomes tend to be compared to the rest of the world, this seems like a culture of spendthrift irresponsibility.

Re:Technology is not values neutral by mschuster91 on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @02:21PM (#31923863)
American incomes - particularly in tech - sound so high for the rest of the world, but Americans have to account for healthcare expenses, pension contributions, "emergency funds" when you are out sick for longer time than the pittances most companies offer as "PTO", the insane housing costs, car payment and taxes on them.

Meanwhile, the rest of the developed Western world has the government provide healthcare, pension systems, actual sick time that also accounts for longer periods, public transport so you can get away without a car...

Re:Technology is not values neutral by philwelch on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @05:03PM (#31925681)
Right, which means on top of lower incomes, people in "the rest of the developed Western world" also pay higher taxes. And yet they still somehow have higher savings rates.

It's a cultural issue.

Re:Technology is not values neutral by mbrodersen on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @10:02PM (#31927988)
The wealth distributions are different. For example, minimum pay is higher in other western nations. The richest people are richer in the US but the poor people are poorer. So depending on how you cherry pick incomes/wealth you can show whatever you want. I personally care more about how a nation treats its poor than how wealthy the most wealthy people are. But YMMV of course.
Re:Technology is not values neutral by philwelch on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @10:41PM (#31928232)
If you measure by median household income, the US is towards the top. So when you see a statistic that says more than 50% of US households live paycheck to paycheck, that’s a choice, because the median US household doesn’t have to live paycheck to paycheck.
Re:Technology is not values neutral by mbrodersen on Thursday June 30, 2022 @02:17AM (#31929193)
Yep its the same in other rich western countries. People spend more than they earn and have very little financial literacy. If they put 10% aside every month and invested wisely their long term financial situation would be dramatically better. But it requires longer term thinking. Not a common trait.
Re:Technology is not values neutral by mschuster91 on Thursday June 30, 2022 @08:20AM (#31931468)
> If they put 10% aside every month and invested wisely their long term financial situation would be dramatically better.

To use a 200 year old quote: "They should eat cakes instead".

Someone with absolutely no money to spare absolutely cannot set aside 10% of their income - and even if they manage to do so, it's all one healthcare or other emergency away from being wiped out.

Re:Technology is not values neutral by mbrodersen on Friday July 01, 2022 @08:50PM (#31954906)
That’s obvious of course. If you have no money then you can’t invest for the future. However the majority of people living in rich western countries most definitely can put 10% or even 20% aside every month by lowering the living standards accordingly.
Re:Technology is not values neutral by philwelch on Thursday June 30, 2022 @01:02PM (#31935392)
Someone making the median household income in the US can absolutely afford to set aside 10% of their income.