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Re:A Random Distribution of Wealth (2017) by chii on Friday June 24, 2022 @10:06AM (#31862044)
> We live in a post-scarcity society now.

people say that, but it's not true.

We barely have enough to launch stuff into space. There's plenty of limits of resources, and are hard to obtain (e.g., rare earth metals, fossil fuels, etc).

Even a small shortage of fertilizers will reduce food production such that some people are looking at starvation - of course, not in the western countries, but that's not what a post-scarcity society looks like.

Re:A Random Distribution of Wealth (2017) by jjoonathan on Friday June 24, 2022 @10:44AM (#31862772)
We went from being 95% farmers to 2% farmers. Meeting our physical needs used to be hard. Now it's easy.

Just because it's easy doesn't mean we don't fuck it up, because of course we do. We push everyone as hard as we can, sending the benefits up the social pyramid and the problems down the social pyramid. When the system experiences a shock, it gets sent down the social pyramid and crunches the people at the bottom.

We could do better, but we choose not to. This is what post-scarcity looks like in a world that hasn't figured out how to share. The core problem is: the more someone has the ability to change the system, the more incentives they have to not change the system.

Re:A Random Distribution of Wealth (2017) by towaway15463 on Friday June 24, 2022 @04:45PM (#31869064)
You forget that those 2% of farmers are now supported by the entire bulk of an industrial economy. The work hasn’t disappeared, it’s just moved to other sectors like tractor and fertilizer production, genetic research, the petroleum industry, shipping networks, refrigeration and all the other things that make it possible to produce so much food with a small number of farmers. Until we automate all of that we’re no where near post scarcity.
Re:A Random Distribution of Wealth (2017) by banannaise on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @11:19AM (#31908853)
Most of which could be straightforwardly marshaled to handle food logistics, thus solving this problem, except that there are other priorities that are apparently more important.

(Those priorities are not, in fact, more important.)

Re:A Random Distribution of Wealth (2017) by jjoonathan on Saturday June 25, 2022 @08:02PM (#31879797)
If you added up the "roots" of that 2%, it would multiply by a small factor. Wooo. Big deal. Same conclusion: we're not just post scarcity, we're distantly post-scarcity.
Re:A Random Distribution of Wealth (2017) by geysersam on Friday June 24, 2022 @10:17AM (#31862240)
Not being able to send things into space is not scarcity. Food, education, transportation, housing, healthcare, life's necessities.
Re:A Random Distribution of Wealth (2017) by qez on Friday June 24, 2022 @10:36AM (#31862611)
> Not being able to send things into space is not scarcity.

Strictly speaking, this is false.

Re:A Random Distribution of Wealth (2017) by chii on Friday June 24, 2022 @10:22AM (#31862328)
if you were able to send things into space (which should be easy to achieve for such a society), then it's evidence we're in a post-scarcity society.

By the lack of being able to send much to space, we must not currently be in a post-scarcity society, because space exploration is such a good and exciting thing to do, you'd expect that it's one of the first things to get accomplished by a post-scarcity society.

Re:A Random Distribution of Wealth (2017) by soraki_soladead on Friday June 24, 2022 @10:33AM (#31862551)
That isn't what post-scarcity means. It doesn't mean there is zero scarcity. It means basic needs are easily met: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-scarcity_economy

You're making claims about how space things align with post-scarcity that doesn't match up with the accepted meaning.

Even still, we _can_ send stuff into space, now cheaper than ever. What is the threshold for "send much to space"? Any person can order up a rocket payload on Amazon.space and have it placed in orbit? That doesn't sound good even if it were free. Especially if it were free...

> space exploration is such a good and exciting thing to do, you'd expect that it's one of the first things to get accomplished by a post-scarcity society

Why?

Re:A Random Distribution of Wealth (2017) by II2II on Friday June 24, 2022 @10:40AM (#31862703)
Post scarcity should not imply that people live in material luxury. It should mean that people have their fundamental needs met, both materially and psycologically (e.g. having enough food is insufficient if there is no food security, say due to droughts).

People can still lead a good life by focussing upon social rather than material facets. We do not need communications networks to socialize, nor do we need overpowered silicon chips to entertain. This is not to dismiss the positive roles of those technologies. Better communications and computation certainly help in everything from agriculture to medicine. It is just that using them as a proxy in applications where they do not contribute to human welfare can be tremendously counterproductive. The same thing can be said for space exploration, perhaps even more assertively since it is a huge drain of resources with a disproportionately isolated gain.

Re:A Random Distribution of Wealth (2017) by willcipriano on Friday June 24, 2022 @10:38AM (#31862650)
It's kinda true, it's just a monkey's paw, careful what you wish for sort of way.

We could absolutely give everyone on earth the median standard of living. If we divided everything up equally (84.71 trillion [global GDP] / 7.753 billion [world population]) we are talking about something like 11 grand per person, per year, total overall spending. That's housing, food, healthcare, fire, police, roads, schooling, etc.

For most people on earth that would be a big raise[0], although virtually everyone in the west would be dramatically poorer.

[0]https://money.cnn.com/2015/07/08/news/economy/global-low-inc...

Re:A Random Distribution of Wealth (2017) by einpoklum on Friday June 24, 2022 @11:12AM (#31863476)
Just remember that divvying up money doesn't have the effect of ensuring a decent standard of living. If you go to some person living in a slum of some under-developed city in an under-developed country, and you gave them 11K USD, they would be able to buy some consumption goods, rennovate their apartment etc. - but they would not be able to buy decent education for their children (let alone themselves); nor decent health care services (they would be able to afford a few visits to an overpriced doctor); etc.
Re:A Random Distribution of Wealth (2017) by willcipriano on Friday June 24, 2022 @11:36AM (#31863853)
11k probably isn't enough to provide much by way of public health or education anyway once you buy all the essentials, I was just making the point that the number includes government spending so if you increase that you lower the amount of income each person will get.
Re:A Random Distribution of Wealth (2017) by towaway15463 on Friday June 24, 2022 @04:50PM (#31869131)
Also, giving one person 11k is very different from giving everyone 11k.
Re:A Random Distribution of Wealth (2017) by Shacklz on Friday June 24, 2022 @10:35AM (#31862597)
> Even a small shortage of fertilizers will reduce food production such that some people are looking at starvation

This is only because we pretend that the free market can solve these kinds of problems. If it weren't for supply chains that optimize in cost efficiency and nothing else, these sort of problems don't necessarily have to exist.

Re:A Random Distribution of Wealth (2017) by A4ET8a8uTh0 on Friday June 24, 2022 @10:33AM (#31862541)
Thank you. OP statement is at odds with basic facts. We have nothing like the technology from Star Trek that allows for easy generation of goods or even Transmetropolitan. We have some level of current population satisfied, but even that is at a pretty high cost.

I genuinely do not understand how people can claim 'post scarcity' ( unlimited ) access to resources on a, clearly, very limited resource that is Earth.

Re:A Random Distribution of Wealth (2017) by snowwrestler on Friday June 24, 2022 @10:51AM (#31862981)
Very simply, “post scarcity” does not mean unlimited availability of everything.
Re:A Random Distribution of Wealth (2017) by towaway15463 on Friday June 24, 2022 @04:53PM (#31869159)
That feels like a redefinition or at least like a huge asterisk is being added. If you need a term to mean “only the basics are covered” you could do better. Post scarcity naturally implies no limits even if your semantics differ.
Re:A Random Distribution of Wealth (2017) by chii on Friday June 24, 2022 @10:21PM (#31871874)
> If you need a term to mean “only the basics are covered” you could do better.

exactly, this is what i have issue with calling post-scarcity.

may be the term could be "universal basic income capable" (UBI-able).