Why would you not require a licence to own and operate a lethal weapon?

Because trusting the government to have the power to determine who gets to defend themselves means that African Americans in the post-civil-war south, and Jews in 1930s Germany, don't get to defend themselves.

People keep saying that the US is on the verge of being a fascist white supremacist state - why do you want to give that state the right to choose who gets guns?

Edit: and in more immediately practical consequences, because gun-hostile governments have a history of publicly leaking the list of people who own guns.

Moat countries require a license to drive cars. A white supremacist nation can certainly use that as excuse to take away the livelihood from certain classes of people. Is this a reason for not enforcing the need to have a driving license? (You do have driving licenses in the US right? I'm often surprised about the amount of things that seem universal and that are not a thing in the united states')

You do not in fact need a driver's license to purchase/own/operate a motor vehicle in the USA - only to use public roads. (And that's just talking about "by law" - "in practice" people drive with no license or with a suspended license far too often here)

Don't ask me! I think we should. My point is just that, from what I can tell, the problems with gun regulation in America have a lot more to do with what the public is willing to support than some kind of complication or corruption making it hard to pass laws the public wants.

The argument is usually that a license mechanism involves a registry and that the government having a list of every gun owner will lead to them taking citizens guns away or otherwise further restrictions.

And such lists have very often led to further restrictions / confiscation in other countries, so it's not exactly a baseless fear.

Like it or not, owning and operating a firearm is guaranteed by the constitution. There are certain issues with requiring licenses for a constitutional right which include cost and location, which have cropped up with the voter I.D. laws and the voter station issues, where specific ballot pickups aren't placed in poorer lacales and certain districts are trying to get rid of mail in voting, making it a financial burden on poor voters to exercise their constitutional right.

I know a lot of people say that licensing makes a lot of sense, and on the face of it, of course I agree. But if you look deeper you can see how it becomes a bridge to making a constitutional right to something for only English speaking, upper middle class or rich people (generally white or Asian demographically) people.

I don't have an issue with competency tests, but what is the bar and for what purpose? I only hunt and to get a hunting license I had to take a hunting class which includes a gun safety pertion. Does that count? Also, I'm the son of a Vietnam vet and have literally been shooting since I was 7 years old. I understand defensive shooting and can shoot revolvers and semi auto pistols, but I don't particularly care for pistol shooting. Do I also have to get certified for defensive shooting separately for a different class of gun? What's the definition? I can hunt with semi autos. AR-15's are a style of rifle, but functionally they're just a semi-auto with a pistol grip. They're fine to hunt with and you can get them chambered in a lot of rounds. If I get everything the same but without the pistol grip, can I have it not qualified as an AR-15 and not have to license it as such? Do we care about semi auto shotguns? They seem to miss a lot of the press.

But then we have to talk about the American government's history if misusing the information that it has been provided. Its history of withholding pertinent information to its citizenry about "liberated" confidential information. PRIZM was leaked and not only is it still being used, but no one has been prosecuted and the people who published the leaked information are being prosecuted. This was information that wasn't given to the government but was the government illegally obtaining information... what happens when information is given for one purpose and then is decided to be used for another. It's reasons like this that the "slippery slope" argument get trotted out (even though, like me, I think most people are for some more restrictions... why NOT a three day waiting period or a background check- which happen in most gun shop purchases).

Many of the states right now don't have a requirement for having your guns to be registered. How do we move forward with that? Are those guns now just illegal, is there a grace period or do all guns going forward have to be registered or are we going to do a "buy back" program for all unregistered guns, where the government buys back your unregistered gun far below a reasonable price before it becomes illegal?

America, as it is, is 50 states with 50 sets of gun laws and -to make it worse - 50 sets of definitions of what each classification of a gun is. Not every state even defines an assault rifle the same. I think only 3 or 4 define it the same, not to mention the federal definitions. Top to bottom, the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, and so we don't even know who would do the licensing... state or federal. And, even if they could figure that out, there's a very good chance it would get knocked out by the Supreme Court on multiple grounds... not the least of which is unlawful discrimination.

I say this like I'm anti all control, and I don't mean to be. I have a concealed carry, even though I don't. I don't really have a problem with licensing, per se. The concealed carry saves with hassle if I take rifles to the range and they're in a bag and I have a hand gun in there or something. Plus, it just doesn't bother me. I just want to let you know, there are things to think about and A LOT of people who don't shoot and have never shot wouldn't think about. It's never just that simple.

Thanks for your very considered reply. Got my licence over 30 years ago, and just to share my perspective after seeing many changes over the years:

> I know a lot of people say that licensing makes a lot of sense, and on the face of it, of course I agree. But if you look deeper you can see how it becomes a bridge to making a constitutional right to something for only English speaking, upper middle class or rich people (generally white or Asian demographically) people.

Not sure why it would be any different from a car licence?

> I don't have an issue with competency tests, but what is the bar and for what purpose? I only hunt and to get a hunting license I had to take a hunting class which includes a gun safety pertion. Does that count? Also, I'm the son of a Vietnam vet and have literally been shooting since I was 7 years old. I understand defensive shooting and can shoot revolvers and semi auto pistols, but I don't particularly care for pistol shooting. Do I also have to get certified for defensive shooting separately for a different class of gun? What's the definition? I can hunt with semi autos. AR-15's are a style of rifle, but functionally they're just a semi-auto with a pistol grip. They're fine to hunt with and you can get them chambered in a lot of rounds. If I get everything the same but without the pistol grip, can I have it not qualified as an AR-15 and not have to license it as such? Do we care about semi auto shotguns? They seem to miss a lot of the press.

I'll fall back on how it works in my country, where we have no guaranteed right of self-defense. Instead owning a gun is a privilege and you must prove you are capable of owning one responsibly. As such, there aren't a whole heap of different usages. The basic licence test covers hunting, target shooting, safe storage etc. and all the common things you would need a gun for. I can agree if you were allowed to carry a pistol for self-defense that would probably require a different licence class due to the increased risk and involvement of other people.

> Many of the states right now don't have a requirement for having your guns to be registered. How do we move forward with that? Are those guns now just illegal, is there a grace period or do all guns going forward have to be registered or are we going to do a "buy back" program for all unregistered guns, where the government buys back your unregistered gun far below a reasonable price before it becomes illegal?

Buybacks have been used in UK, NZ and Australia (at least) and have worked well, despite the sums of money involved. As far as I know they've used something like fair market value, though of course there have been complaints, particularly from people with e.g. rare models that are hard to value.

> America, as it is, is 50 states with 50 sets of gun laws and -to make it worse - 50 sets of definitions of what each classification of a gun is. Not every state even defines an assault rifle the same. I think only 3 or 4 define it the same, not to mention the federal definitions. Top to bottom, the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, and so we don't even know who would do the licensing... state or federal. And, even if they could figure that out, there's a very good chance it would get knocked out by the Supreme Court on multiple grounds... not the least of which is unlawful discrimination.

Yeah, I appreciate the problems. There are always people who love to look for loopholes, e.g. what about an AR-15 chambered for .22? I would say the test case is simply how dangerous is the weapon. Can it be used to kill many people very quickly? A AR-15 in 5.56 is far more dangerous that in .22. A semi-auto is more dangerous than a bolt action. A gun with a magazine of 30 bullets is more dangerous that one with 8. etc. etc. Not easy decisions, but a framework of danger to the community can be used to identify weapons that should have more restrictions.

I say this like I'm anti all control, and I don't mean to be. I have a concealed carry, even though I don't. I don't really have a problem with licensing, per se. The concealed carry saves with hassle if I take rifles to the range and they're in a bag and I have a hand gun in there or something. Plus, it just doesn't bother me. I just want to let you know, there are things to think about and A LOT of people who don't shoot and have never shot wouldn't think about. It's never just that simple.

Appreciate your thoughts.

I will say this about the car license argument... A car license is not a right. It isn't codified in the constitution as something we are guaranteed, like voting. That brings me to stories like this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a...

I don't view car licenses and the right to own a firearm on the same fundamental level, neither do many/most Americans. It has to do with what we view as our fundamental rights vs. what other countries of the world view as their rights. We feel the same way about speech, which isn't the same in a lot of countries, for better or worse. Both of these fundamental rights and the viewpoints they bring do cut both ways in action and attitude. I can see that.

The majority of dissent in America in views on guns is the urban population vs. the rural population (this is actually the similar in Canada, if you look at the difference in views on hunting and gun ownership, just like in America - even though their gun violence is a fraction of ours).

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/07/10/rural-and-u...

A knife is a lethal weapon. And before you go into how much easier it is to kill someone with an AR15, remember that more people are killed with knives than AR15's.