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Re:Do we need a better understanding of 'progress'? by seydor on Friday June 17, 2022 @03:46PM (#31783321)
It's simpler than that, it is all about incentives. Science can happen even in the trenches of war, or by random employees in a patent office. Engineering needs resources and conerted efford. But when the incentives have nothing to do with science itself but rather with the struggle to keep all the PhD people employed, you end up with paper-mills and grant-harvester PIs. There s also a degeneration of the science culture due to so much self-promotion. Whatever happened to humility?

Engineering projects like Apollo or Manhattan succeded by taking the theory invented by a few madmen and making the entire effort to the end product. Instead we now have projects like the Human brain project (EU) and the Brain initiative that don't seem to have a defined goal, and no clear incentives. The HBP used to be about building an artificial brain, as ambitious as it sounds. Instead, petty politics and meddling led to the project becoming a project salad with very little to show. AFAIK the Brain initiative has not done better.

The article itself is another example of weak incentives. We don't need to invent another field called "progress studies" in order to make progress. That's only making the problem worse.

Re:Do we need a better understanding of 'progress'? by madacol on Friday June 17, 2022 @05:34PM (#31784652)
So, what is progress?

I like to think that progress is about maximizing global satisfaction. But then really hard questions follow

- Who are included in "global"?, every human being?, every conscious mammal?. Do we all get the same weight?

- (Assuming last answer is all human beings) How should we come to a consensus?. How do we coordinate to achieve our agreed goals?

If you think this is all too subjective, should we stop pouring resources into philosophy and arts?

I think this questions deserve at least some studying

Re:Do we need a better understanding of 'progress'? by LesZedCB on Friday June 17, 2022 @05:35PM (#31784665)
haha, i think it's been studied. you described "utilitarian ethics"

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/utilitarianism-history/

Re:Do we need a better understanding of 'progress'? by madacol on Friday June 17, 2022 @05:41PM (#31784734)
Thanks!, good to know
Re:Do we need a better understanding of 'progress'? by robocat on Friday June 17, 2022 @06:10PM (#31785056)
> should we stop pouring resources into philosophy and arts?

Do we exist just to eat, shit, and breed?

Hopefully our civilisation is concerned with more than just the cold necessities of life: a civilisation that lets us do with our minds what we will. Circuses and Netflix have more meaning than bread: bread is merely a low level dependency in the skill tree.

I think there is a lot of bollox to our liberal humanities: but who am I to judge what others choose to put their minds to? Edit: the small percentage of gold produced is what matters, not the large percentage of load bearing ore. There can be a lot of worthwhile waste.

Disclaimer: I am Engineer, not Word Rotator.

Re:Do we need a better understanding of 'progress'? by corsac on Saturday June 18, 2022 @08:42AM (#31789310)
Thank you for "Word Rotator".

As someone who values the liberal humanities, I wish "support for philosophy and the arts" were implicitly understood as support for leisure time for people in general, rather than funding special arts programming or individual institution-pleasers. If arts and philosophy are not flourishing as they should be, it is not because the Kennedy Center (or whatever) needs any more money, but because people can't afford basic needs like housing without spending all their time working, and so have no time for it.

Re:Do we need a better understanding of 'progress'? by andsoitis on Friday June 17, 2022 @08:58PM (#31786373)
> Do we exist just to eat, shit, and breed?

we exist because we eat, shit, and breed. But that will end too.

We are just an expression of processes in the unfolding universe.

Re:Do we need a better understanding of 'progress'? by peteradio on Friday June 17, 2022 @05:23PM (#31784541)
Consider all the buzz word paper milling was to supplant the nepotistic framework from before.
Re:Do we need a better understanding of 'progress'? by Jensson on Friday June 17, 2022 @08:08PM (#31786080)
But that nepotistic framework produced a lot of good results, so it is unclear if fixing it this way actually improved the output. Meritocracy isn't a good thing if the extra burden of trying to evaluate merit actually worsen the outcome of the process.
Re:Do we need a better understanding of 'progress'? by alexfromapex on Friday June 17, 2022 @03:46PM (#31783330)
Agreed, it's all about choosing the correct performance indicators
Re:Do we need a better understanding of 'progress'? by LesZedCB on Friday June 17, 2022 @05:08PM (#31784398)
"When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure"

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law