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Re:We don't know what makes things sentient–so let's stop ac... by sfrank2147 on Monday June 13, 2022 @12:48PM (#31728090)
What does it even mean for consciousness to be an illusion? An illusion implies that someone is being fooled by consciousness, but who is the someone being fooled if there is no underlying true self?
Re:We don't know what makes things sentient–so let's stop ac... by bnralt on Monday June 13, 2022 @01:05PM (#31728322)
Human brains are able to create certain mental abstractions. There's good evidence for why this would be useful (think about how much more flexible humans are than computer programs). Referring to these mental abstractions as "consciousness" or "qualia" is begging the question to a large extent.

The illusion is that these abstractions are evidence of something qualitatively more advanced than simple neurons interacting in a way that's beneficial for the organism. Which isn't unusual, we've seen the same kind of reaction when people proclaim that they couldn't have "come from monkeys," or any other scientific discovery that knocks humans off the pedestal they've placed themselves upon.

Re:We don't know what makes things sentient–so let's stop ac... by kozd on Monday June 13, 2022 @01:26PM (#31728617)
Why is it like something to be these abstractions?
Re:We don't know what makes things sentient–so let's stop ac... by whimsicalism on Monday June 13, 2022 @05:33PM (#31732054)
Anthropically - whatever it would be like to be one of these abstractions is what we would call conscious.

A society of only p-zombies would call p-zombieness consciousness and they would be no less correct than us.

Re:We don't know what makes things sentient–so let's stop ac... by TuringTest on Monday June 13, 2022 @01:06PM (#31728334)
I wouldn't say it's an illusion; I would call it a perception, which I know exists because I do perceive it. In the same way I perceive external shapes and sounds, I perceive thoughts about those perceptions and thoughts about my previous thoughts. That's not better than Descartes, but I think Descartes had this part essentialy right :-)
Re:We don't know what makes things sentient–so let's stop ac... by nescioquid on Monday June 13, 2022 @01:04PM (#31728318)
There is an idea that consciousness may a mere epiphenomenon; as an epiphenomenon, consciousness cannot effect any change or action. But we have the feeling that we are choosing our action, so this must be an illusion, according to the idea.

There were some experiments in which subjects were asked to push a button whenever they chose. The results showed that the impulse to push the button arose before the subject was aware of having "decided" to push the button (I can't recall how they managed to detect and measure this).

At any rate, I think that's what the parent is referring to.

Re:We don't know what makes things sentient–so let's stop ac... by mbfg on Monday June 13, 2022 @01:17PM (#31728513)
I think the feeling that we choose our actions, is actually not so clear a feeling. If you pay attention to how you actually make decisions, even simple ones, it is difficult to see where a "conscious being" played any part. You don't think your thoughts before you think them. They just arise out of the darkness of our subconscious minds and pop into our consciousness. We didn't consciously make them, or control them -- they just showed up. It seems that whatever we call consciousness, it is more of a leach that takes credit for what the subconscious animal does. To me, at best, the conscious mind is a journaler of thought, and perhaps is an offshoot of memory and our association engine.
Re:We don't know what makes things sentient–so let's stop ac... by TuringTest on Monday June 13, 2022 @01:56PM (#31729005)
>* You don't think your thoughts before you think them. They just arise out of the darkness of our subconscious minds and pop into our consciousness. We didn't consciously make them, or control them -- they just showed up. It seems that whatever we call consciousness, it is more of a leach that takes credit for what the subconscious animal does. *

Neuroscience actually confirms this :-) Brain scans show that conscious thoughts are reflections of subconscious processes doing all the work, AND that the rational mind is very good at creating post-hoc rationalizations for explaining "reasons" of why you arrived to the decisions you took. Most of what we call "reasoning" is about creating narratives to save our self-esteem.

Re:We don't know what makes things sentient–so let's stop ac... by taylorius on Monday June 13, 2022 @03:41PM (#31730685)
If consciousness is an epiphenomenon, what was it that led Newton to create Calculus (for example). It's not clear to me how such a thing could come about via instinct.
Re:We don't know what makes things sentient–so let's stop ac... by int_19h on Monday June 13, 2022 @03:59PM (#31730970)
It could just be the right kind of inputs. And I don't mean just education and such, but literally every perception Newton ever had over the course of his life, plus any genetic factors.