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Re:In defense of cryptocurrency by pavlov on Thursday June 09, 2022 @02:17PM (#31684825)
Well, L2 systems aren't on a blockchain at all, so do they even count?

If we get to cherry-pick from whatever money transfer systems exist, it's worth remembering that bank transfers within the Eurozone area are free and practically immediate. What crypto can beat that? Clearly you don't need cryptocurrency to deliver a service that's ideal for consumers, as regulation has achieved it in Europe.

Re:In defense of cryptocurrency by sumy23 on Thursday June 09, 2022 @02:31PM (#31685022)
I think the right way to look at a block chain is to think about it as a global computer that enables trusted execution on untrusted hardware.

At present, this global computer is very weak. Cryptocurrencies are a good first program to implement on this computer because each transaction is essentially just adding and subtracting a few numbers. So yes, in some sense, it's crazy that the cost of adding and subtracting a few numbers costs $20.

However, even though these global computers are currently very weak computationally, the new computational model allows for new things to be built. For instance, smart contracts. Using smart contracts and cryptocurrencies, you could easily implement almost every facet of the global financial system. From bank accounts, to money transfers, to bonds, to securities, brokerage services, margin services, options, credit default swaps, etc. Yes, many of these things can be implemented some other way, but blockchains allow anyone with a computer to build something along these lines.

And yes, it's nice that the Eurozone regulated free money transfers. But how much work went into building the Eurozone and passing the required regulations? What if you want to write your own options contract? How long would it take to get regulation passed in the EU to allow free options contracts? Blockchains allow you to build a system akin to the entire EU banking infrastructure from your laptop. Even if it's not quite as good as the current system, I think it's still a cool idea.

Re:In defense of cryptocurrency by Nursie on Friday June 10, 2022 @12:08AM (#31689921)
> Yes, many of these things can be implemented some other way, but blockchains allow anyone with a computer to build something along these lines.

Any fraudster that wants to!

There are more reasons than technical why such things are limited.

Re:In defense of cryptocurrency by criddell on Thursday June 09, 2022 @02:42PM (#31685167)
I don't understand why L2 systems are even necessary. There's a relatively well known email exchange between Nakamoto and Mike Hearn in which Nakamoto says:

> The existing Visa credit card network processes about 15 million Internet purchases per day worldwide. Bitcoin can already scale much larger than that with existing hardware for a fraction of the cost.

If the original design of Bitcoin anticipated Visa-scale transactions for a fraction of the cost, what's the motivation for a L2?

I'm assuming Nakamoto wasn't being cheeky when he wrote fraction of the cost. Afterall, 1000/1 is a fraction...

Re:In defense of cryptocurrency by pavlov on Thursday June 09, 2022 @03:09PM (#31685462)
Or maybe Nakamoto was simply full of crap, like people talking up their cryptocurrency schemes tend to be?
Re:In defense of cryptocurrency by toolz on Thursday June 09, 2022 @10:46PM (#31689399)
I just don't understand why crypto discussions seems to draw out so many rude comments. If satoshi wanted fame and fortune he could have both easily, but there are a ton of early bitcoins that haven't moved - so obviously he wasn't in it for the money or he would've used those coins.
Re:In defense of cryptocurrency by shkkmo on Friday June 10, 2022 @12:10AM (#31689935)
Or they lost the key to the wallet before the tokens were worth cashing out.
Re:In defense of cryptocurrency by toolz on Friday June 10, 2022 @08:53AM (#31693376)
this is evidence that he wasn't in it for the money. If you came up with an elaborate scam with intentions of hustling people - how likely are you to be wildly successful, but accidentally lose access to the funds you worked so hard for?
Re:In defense of cryptocurrency by shkkmo on Friday June 10, 2022 @01:34PM (#31697121)
This seems like a post hoc rationalization to support a narrative. Key management is hard and just because people mess it up, it doesn't meam that they weren't serious about using that key. Designing and building novel software is a different skill set than keeping your stuff organized enough to not lose things.

I could just as easily come up with a post hoc story that says that the reason that he has never come forward to claim credit is out of extreme embarrassment about the size of the fortune he lost, and that this is evidence that he does care about the money.

Re:In defense of cryptocurrency by toolz on Friday June 10, 2022 @04:58PM (#31699296)
I'll just stick with my "innocent until proven guilty" opinion. Taking the most outlandish route possible to smear someones name seems rather unhealthy for everyone. There's no precedence for someone pulling off a huge digital scam and failing to cash out because they forgot their password. Could it happen? Sure, there aren't many things outside of the realm of possibilities when you're tasked with proving a negative. Lucky for us, that isn't the responsibility placed on most anyone in social situations and definitely not for criminal accusations in court.
Re:In defense of cryptocurrency by shkkmo on Friday June 10, 2022 @05:46PM (#31699710)
I'm not sure what you mean by "the most outlandish route possible to smear someones name". I fail to see why me asserting that not spending the coins isn't strong evidence about Satoshi's motivations is some how a smear or trying to assign guilt?

The entire conversation started because someone pointed out that just because Satoshi said something doesn't mean it has to be true (although they made that point in a rude way.)

The vibe I am getting from your responses is: 'satoshi is a saint, everything he said has to be true, and any attempt to point out that we have little evidence about Satoshi's character is a baseless smear.'

I am sure that is an inaccurate and unfair characterization of what you are trying to see, so please correct me as to where I have it wrong.

Re:In defense of cryptocurrency by toolz on Friday June 10, 2022 @06:12PM (#31699952)
I see your interpretation now, my apologies. When I read "scheme" I understood that to be slander and mean satoshi had malicious intentions. If you understand scheme to simply be a benign way of suggesting his plan was wrong then it de-escalates this entire conversation.

I thought you were defending the a comment claiming satoshi was being malicious. I would've done better to search for a more charitable interpretation.

Re:In defense of cryptocurrency by shkkmo on Friday June 10, 2022 @11:14PM (#31701617)
Persono, I think that Satoshi was an idealist but not a saint and the reasons that the funds have not been accessed are not due to altruism.

If Satoshi did stretch the truth or lie in that quote, I would be inclinded to view it as motivated by ideolatry rather than greed. However, any speculation as to motives is fairly pointless given the lack of information.

Re:In defense of cryptocurrency by hnthrow1010 on Friday June 10, 2022 @11:09AM (#31695259)
That's not a rude comment. Regardless of how much money he made or didn't make from the endeavor, Nakamoto still made many incorrect statements.
Re:In defense of cryptocurrency by tromp on Friday June 10, 2022 @06:06AM (#31692050)
If he wanted to make clear his intention to never ever cash out, he could have burned those bitcoins.
Re:In defense of cryptocurrency by toolz on Friday June 10, 2022 @08:55AM (#31693402)
are you aware of what it means to "burn" bitcoin? It's simply putting the coins in a wallet and destroying the keys.

For all we know, these coins have already been "burned"

Re:In defense of cryptocurrency by tromp on Saturday June 11, 2022 @07:06AM (#31703599)
No, burning is sending coins to an obviously unspendable address.
Re:In defense of cryptocurrency by toolz on Saturday June 11, 2022 @07:36PM (#31709555)
that isn't possible in bitcoin - there are no "obviously unspendable addresses"

like I said, the best you can do is burn the private keys, but that isn't verifiable - you can't prove something doesn't exist

Re:In defense of cryptocurrency by randomran01234 on Thursday June 09, 2022 @07:59PM (#31688451)
ZK Rollups are definitely “on a blockchain” and exist as any other smart contract application, like USDC. What they move off-chain is the computation and data storage of a transaction, but verified zk proofs result in the same security guarantees as any other contract on the underlying L1.
Re:In defense of cryptocurrency by DennisP on Thursday June 09, 2022 @03:07PM (#31685440)
> L2 systems aren't on a blockchain at all

The leading L2s on Ethereum are rollups, which store all transactions on chain in compressed form.

Re:In defense of cryptocurrency by forum_ghost on Thursday June 09, 2022 @11:11PM (#31689540)
Bitcoin solves the problem of frozen fx reserves and seized assets. It's a neutral store of value.

the TAM is 400+ trillion.

Payments are low margin, low value business. Often even subsidized by the systemic banks.

Do you really think it costs zero to secure the entire GDP, and the entire wealth, of an entire economy? zero cost SEPA transactions don't secure the EU economy. The US military and their nuclear weapons do, and they don't cost zero, like a SEPA transactions for a coffee.

What's the cost to secure 10 trillion? 100 trillion?

Re:In defense of cryptocurrency by lottin on Friday June 10, 2022 @02:49AM (#31690881)
A virtual token is literally useless. It's only worth something, so far as it can be traded for actual goods, so the availability of "secured" goods is quite essential as far as the value of cryptographic tokens go.
Re:In defense of cryptocurrency by forum_ghost on Friday June 10, 2022 @03:45AM (#31691253)
> availability of "secured" goods

What do you mean by that? Backing?

Re:In defense of cryptocurrency by lottin on Friday June 10, 2022 @04:09AM (#31691367)
By that I mean not easy to steal by anyone at gunpoint.

The point is that money is not wealth. Wealth is the ability to consume goods and services. If you got stranded on a deserted island with a suitcase full of millions you'd still live in extreme poverty despite all your millions.

Therefore securing crypto-currencies doesn't replace the need for securing actual wealth. On the contrary, it's an extra cost that its users have to bear, in addition to the costs of securing GDP and the entire economy.

Re:In defense of cryptocurrency by forum_ghost on Friday June 10, 2022 @04:51PM (#31699232)
Note that should you be rescued the suit case full of millions will still worth millions.

The suitcase, stuffed with medium of exchange, holds value across time.

This is the key concept to understand the issue at hand.

For a medium of exchange to become useful, it must first become able to hold value, preferably long term, months/years.

The only way an asset can do that, if there is demand to hold the asset for long durations, committed long term investors.

Bitcoin is an experiment in bootstrapping a neutral money system from scratch.

If you look at bitcoins money velocity, it’s much closer to M2, than M1. Thus comparing it to investment assets, or bonds, is much more relevant today than to payment systems. It’s a store of value for now, maybe a little speculative, sure.

Once it grows large enough and value becomes more stable, it can become a decent medium of exchange then.

This implies market capitalisation in many trillions, and if it proves to be successful: displacement of many other store of value. Negative yield bonds, gold. Maybe even real estate and rental yields on that are actually negative in real terms in many markets. We will see.

As such it would represents a cloud economy of sorts with large amounts of wealth stored in it, trillions of dollars. That would require a correspondingly sizeable security budget to protect.

Re:In defense of cryptocurrency by lottin on Saturday June 11, 2022 @07:25AM (#31703683)
Maybe I misunderstood you, but I thought your point was that it's okay if maintaining the bitcoin network is very expensive because securing the GDP is even more expensive, which is a flawed argument, because bitcoin doesn't remove the need for securing the GDP. Bitcoin's performance needs to be evaluated according to how it compares to other monetary systems in terms of cost-effectiveness, not against the cost of securing GDP.

Regarding the question of bitcoin's utility as money. The defining trait of money is that it's used widely as medium of exchange, not that it holds value. An asset has to hold value reasonably well, for it to be able to be used as money, but holding value is not what makes an asset money. Some assets depreciate quickly and don't hold value, but most don't, most assets do store value and yet are not money. Is bitcoin a good store of value? No, it isn't, because a good store of value not only has to hold value over long periods, it also needs to have low volatility. Using a high volatility asset such as bitcoin as a store of value, means there's a big chance you may forced to sell it at times when its market price is well below your purchase price.

Lastly, I don't know what "bitcoin's velocity" is. As far as I know, the velocity of money is a concept from the Quantity Theory of Money. The basic assumption that this theory makes is that GDP is sold and paid for with money. If you wanted to apply QTM to bitcoin, first you'd need to locate a country that sells its entire GDP in bitcoin, and only then you could calculate bitcoin's velocity, in principle. This velocity would be specific to this country. Then again, I'm not aware that such a country exist, so I don't know what you mean by bitcoin's velocity or why it is relevant to this conversation.

Re:In defense of cryptocurrency by hericium on Thursday June 09, 2022 @02:23PM (#31684908)
> it's worth remembering that bank transfers within the Eurozone area are free and practically immediate

In theory. Many banks are not using this system and stayed on old SEPA wire transfers: charges split between sender and receiver or covered by sender, 3 work days to process, ability to pay more to speed-up the process by two days etc. It's slow and/or costly.