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Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by snowwrestler on Monday June 06, 2022 @01:34PM (#31643299)
Everything about the bots is a side show to the merger. Twitter’s assertions about bots are in SEC filings and they are a publicly traded company. If there is a cause of action, it already exists and has nothing to do with Musk’s bid.

As for that bid, the time for due diligence is before, not after, one signs the merger agreement.

FWIW I have shares in Twitter and would prefer them to remain a publicly traded company.

Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by rasz on Monday June 06, 2022 @01:57PM (#31643583)
> Twitter’s assertions about bots are in SEC filings

now assume twitter lied in those filings

Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by jonny_eh on Monday June 06, 2022 @02:01PM (#31643628)
There's no evidence they lied. Why should we assume it, because Musk wants to back-out on his offer?
Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by kcplate on Monday June 06, 2022 @11:39PM (#31649626)
What is known—as an organization Twitter hasn’t always been forthright with the public regarding their practices (shadow banning, uneven application of rules regarding account suspensions). In some cases these may have been bad actors within the organization acting outside of the management’s knowledge, or even tuned algorithms towards certain topic preferences that have a more aggressive effect—but when discovered, the company does tends to deny and then quietly work to rectify the problem internally.

So did they lie about the bots? Who knows? Do they always tell the truth? Well, I think you could reasonably argue not quite.

Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by eric_cc on Monday June 06, 2022 @02:23PM (#31643914)
> There's no evidence they lied. Why should we assume it, because Musk wants to back-out on his offer?

Why should we trust that they are being honest?

Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by TheCoelacanth on Monday June 06, 2022 @05:25PM (#31646497)
Because if you want to back out of a contract on the basis that someone lied, you need actual evidence that they lied, not just a lack of evidence that they were honest.
Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by ForHackernews on Monday June 06, 2022 @02:36PM (#31644047)
> SEC filings and they are a publicly traded company. If there is a cause of action, it already exists
Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by countrpt on Monday June 06, 2022 @02:56PM (#31644314)
There’s no reason to lie - the way it’s stated makes it clear that it is not, in fact, an estimate of the total number of bots on the platform. They never stated the number of bots on the platform and never claimed to. The stat they gave (percent of monetizable users - those who see ads) may be not what Musk was asking for, but there’s no reason to believe they lied about a percentage they defined in a very specific way - especially when, even with that definition, it had a disclaimer that it was only an estimate and could be higher.

So the argument wouldn’t be that they lied. It would be that the information they provided wasn’t useful to gauge the true scope of the “bot problem” on Twitter - at best it’d be misleading by omission, which is almost certainly not illegal given what publicly-traded companies do all the time. (Making truthful statements and being fully transparent with all facts of a business are clearly not the same thing.)

Part of the reason Twitter is so hesitant to put some number on bots is because we’d first have to agree on how to define it exactly and how to measure it objectively. If someone uses the API or third-party app or integration to interact with Twitter, how do you prove they’re not a bot? Twitter’s definition avoids that by focusing on people who can see ads on the website and if you’re actually visiting the website proper (or using an official app) you’re much less likely to be a bot to begin with.

But honestly, all this stuff is just a distraction anyway. The SEC statements were there for years and if he doubted it this could have come up during due diligence. He only is making a stink about it now because a) he wants to get out of the deal at the quoted price and b) he wants to embarrass Twitter in the process. In fact, it seems to me this whole thing from the get-go was an exercise in the hopes of uncovering evidence of something salacious regarding “censorship” and various posturing around it. There never appeared to be any realistic and serious plans to address the issues at hand, just to gesticulate wildly about it in front of the press. I think those truly concerned about the problems being discussed should have hoped for better from this whole thing.

Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by nieve on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @12:04AM (#31649779)
Somewhat hilariously he agreed to a contract waiving due diligence. I suspect that his lawyers were drinking heavily after that one.
Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by AmazingTed on Monday June 06, 2022 @02:01PM (#31643645)
> and has nothing to do with Musk’s bid.

The bid gave Musk access to inside information.

> the time for due diligence is before, not after, one signs the merger agreement.

I bought a house. The due diligence period to inspect the house, get a survey, etc. was after we entered into the contract and before closing.

Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by Johnny555 on Monday June 06, 2022 @02:21PM (#31643888)
I bought a house. The due diligence period to inspect the house, get a survey, etc. was after we entered into the contract and before closing.

And many people, just like Musk, waive their right to terminate the contract due to inspections, loan approval, etc. For the same reason that he did - it gives the seller less reason to reject your offer.

Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by AmazingTed on Monday June 06, 2022 @03:20PM (#31644739)
Yeah, it's not fair to suggest this was 73-page contract was an as-is agreement with no warranties express or implied: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1418091/000119312522...

There are two whole sections from Section 4.1 through Section 5.11, comprising 16 pages of representations and warranties, which incorporate a wide swath of statements (including public disclosures to shareholders), not to mention two pages of conditions, etc. including specifically:

> Section 5.5 Information Supplied. None of the information supplied or required to be supplied by or on behalf of Parent or any of its Representatives expressly for inclusion or incorporation by reference in the Proxy Statement shall, at the time it is first mailed to the Company’s stockholders and at the time of the Company Stockholders’ Meeting to be held in connection with the Merger, contain any untrue statement of material fact or omit to state any material fact required to be stated therein or necessary to make the statements therein, in light of the circumstances under which they were made, not misleading.

It says right there ~"if Twitter has been lying to its shareholders I can void the contract."

Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by JamesSwift on Monday June 06, 2022 @03:48PM (#31645194)
> It says right there ~"if Twitter has been lying to its shareholders I can void the contract."

The thing you quote very specifically only applies to the Proxy Statement provided to shareholders as part of the process of this specific deal. It has nothing to do with previous communications and "if youve ever lied about anything then the contract is void".

Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by JamesSwift on Monday June 06, 2022 @04:09PM (#31645501)
EDIT 2 because its super frustrating that theres an entire contract with the specific language in it that people argue past:

> it's not fair to suggest this was 73-page contract was an as-is agreement with no warranties express or implied

Article IV is what binds Twitter (Article V is what binds Musk). It very explicitly says this is as-is with no warranties express or implied. Section 4.25:

> Section 4.25 No Other Representations or Warranties. Except for the representations and warranties expressly set forth in this Article IV, neither the Company nor any other Person makes or has made any representation or warranty of any kind whatsoever, express or implied, at Law or in equity, with respect to the Company or any of its Subsidiaries or their respective business, operations, assets, liabilities, conditions (financial or otherwise), notwithstanding the delivery or disclosure to Parent and the Acquisition Sub or any of their Affiliates or Representatives of any documentation, forecasts or other information with respect to any one or more of the foregoing. Without limiting the generality of the foregoing, neither the Company nor any other Person makes or has made any express or implied representation or warranty to Parent, Acquisition Sub or any of their respective Representatives with respect to (a) any financial projection, forecast, estimate or budget relating to the Company, any of its Subsidiaries or their respective businesses or, (b) except for the representations and warranties made by the Company in this Article IV, any oral or written information presented to Parent, Acquisition Sub or any of their respective Representatives in the course of their due diligence investigation of the Company, the negotiation of this Agreement or the course of the Merger, or the accuracy or completeness thereof.

Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by JamesSwift on Monday June 06, 2022 @04:02PM (#31645402)
EDIT: even better, Parent/Acquisition Sub refers to Musk's side. So this clause is basically saying Musk won't mislead shareholders to convince them to agree to a deal.
Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by Johnny555 on Monday June 06, 2022 @03:21PM (#31644774)
It says right there ~"if Twitter has been lying to its shareholders I can void the contract."

If Twitter has been lying to its shareholders, then senior leadership is already in trouble and may be going to jail, but there's no evidence of that.

Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by AmazingTed on Monday June 06, 2022 @03:44PM (#31645142)
True, Musk's lawyers haven't accused Twitter of lying. They've said Twitter is withholding information that Musk is entitled to (I had to go read the letter). And yeah, the contract gives him very broad rights:

> Section 6.4 Access to Information; Confidentiality. Upon reasonable notice, the Company shall (and shall cause each of its Subsidiaries to) ... furnish promptly ... all information concerning the business ... as may reasonably be requested ... for any reasonable business purpose related to the consummation of the transaction...

I think it makes perfect sense that any financier will ask "How many users does Twitter have?" And that entitles him to this information.

Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by kcplate on Monday June 06, 2022 @09:39PM (#31648874)
It’s a clever approach by Musk. How do I prove I am not withholding information? Not sure I can to the satisfaction of the person accusing me of it.

Twitter doesn’t know what it doesn’t know. It’s dropping a bot estimate that may or may not have shaky foundations. It knows it’s bot “estimate” could be low, perhaps significantly so. It knows that every point over their best estimate fuels Musk’s fears and ultimately becomes a PR and potential legal disaster.

They will have internal employee pressures to make Musk go away.

They will have political pressures to make Musk go away.

The shareholders want the offer, but Twitter hasn’t really gave a shit about them before.

Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by cloudsec9 on Monday June 06, 2022 @02:19PM (#31643859)
> I bought a house. The due diligence period to inspect the house, get a survey, etc. was after we entered into the contract and before closing.

I know with the crazy housing markets, this might not be something anymore, but in times past you would enter into a CONDITIONAL contract and set the price, with the stipulation that the inspection has to be satisfactory to remove the conditions. Otherwise, after you signed your contract, the house is yours, and the survey just tells you what you are obligated to fix.

Also, Business deals usually allow parties to enter into things like NDAs for due diligence, as well as signing things like Memos of Agreement to get a roughed out deal, pending a thorough due diligence. I believe he's past (or waived) the due diligence. I'm sure there is a back-out clause, but that has $$$ attached and he's trying to wiggle out without paying, is what it seems like.

Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by JamesSwift on Monday June 06, 2022 @02:20PM (#31643870)
> The due diligence period to inspect the house, get a survey, etc. was after we entered into the contract and before closing.

Right, because thats what you included in your offer contract. Now, imagine that you didn't have anything in your offer about contingent on inspection. Do you think you would have standing to back out of the deal?

Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by rurp on Monday June 06, 2022 @02:12PM (#31643777)
Did you explicitly waive your right to standard due diligence in the contract you signed? Elon did.
Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by anotherman554 on Monday June 06, 2022 @02:25PM (#31643928)
I waived inspection when I bought a house.
Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by falcolas on Monday June 06, 2022 @03:34PM (#31644976)
If home inspections on TikTok have shown me anything, it's to never do this. Too much potential reward (savings on the fixes, rights of refusal) for such a small outlay (a couple of hundred dollars).
Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by dagw on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @07:22AM (#31652529)
The reason to wave inspection is not to save money, but because the seller will refuse to sell to you if you don't. My father in law was offering to pay $5-10k over the next highest bid on a house he wanted to buy, but didn't get it because it he refused to wave his right to inspection.
Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by falcolas on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @11:11AM (#31655529)
Personally, the seller refusing to sell if you get an inspection is such a huge red flag I would never enter the contract. The house could be in a state where it should be condemned, and you wouldn't be able to tell.
Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by anotherman554 on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @11:33AM (#31655853)
There's no red flag. The seller doesn't demand anything. In a hot market they simply sell to the person who waived inspection.

For example, a house goes up for sale, three people bid within three days of the listing. Two of them for $300,000 with inspection waived, one for $300,000 with inspection not waived. The bid with inspection not waived is never even considered. It would be irrational for the seller to take the risk associated with the weaker bid.

Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by falcolas on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @03:42PM (#31659161)
Yes, that's still a red flag, at least to me. It's not my money though.
Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by snowwrestler on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @07:15AM (#31652469)
It’s not to save the inspection fee, it’s to win a bidding war on the house. Given two bids at the same price, sellers will accept the bid with fewer contingencies.

This is also why people offered all cash for a house even when mortgages were cheap (avoids the financing contingency).

Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by falcolas on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @11:13AM (#31655562)
Not worth it. Spending $200k (I know, I'm a good decade out of date on my house prices) on a house and then having to spend another $200k to make it habitable is a losing game.

Perhaps it's different if you're acting like an angel investor in housing, but for an average family, it's financial Russian Roulette.

Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by anotherman554 on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @11:42AM (#31655987)
We're getting off topic, but I have two points about waiving inspection:

1) In my state there's a mandatory seller disclosure. If the seller knew about a problem with the house and didn't disclose it on the seller disclosure you can sue them if you can prove they new about the defect and intentionally didn't disclose it, so there's at least that.

2) Home inspectors don't take legal responsibility if the inspection misses something important, they only offer to, at most, give you your money back on the inspection. So you have to be optimistic that the inspector has a clue what they are doing and can catch future problems when you rely on an inspection.

Buying a home while waiving inspection might be Russian Roulette, but I bet the odds are less than 16.7% that waiving inspection will financially kill you.

Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by zrail on Monday June 06, 2022 @02:06PM (#31643697)
That's a right granted by your contract that expires after a certain amount of time with no objections. The merger agreement would have incorporated such a right but Musk waived it (iirc, based on Matt Levine's summaries).
Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by kjksf on Monday June 06, 2022 @01:52PM (#31643520)
<5% bots is a material statement that Twitter made that appears to be false.

It's very much related to the bid. If you materially mis-represent your company then it's a valid reason to scrap the deal.

> As for that bid, the time for due diligence is before, not after, one signs the merger agreement.

That's not how it works.

Try calling Twitter: "I'm doing due diligence on you guys, could you open your books to me"?

They'll laugh at you and hung up.

The agreements is a pre-requisite of doing what "due diligence" means in this context.

"Due diligence" specifically involves looking at things that you're typically not allowed to looked at.

Things like auditing financials of the company, doing an audit of the source code, proprietary technology etc.

It requires the company being acquired to share a lot of proprietary information.

The agreement, which includes $1 billion breakup clause, is necessary to filter out people who are not serious.

Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by stinky613 on Monday June 06, 2022 @02:00PM (#31643619)
Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by JamesSwift on Monday June 06, 2022 @05:39PM (#31646679)
He didnt "waive" it as far as I know. The agreement explicitly says that at the time of the SEC filing, the due diligence has been completed to the satisfaction of Musk. Now, this might mean he just didn't ask for any information, so that could technically mean he waived it. See my other comment about section 5.11.
Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by rurp on Monday June 06, 2022 @02:13PM (#31643795)
Sounds like Elon shouldn't have explicitly refused the opportunity for due diligence then.
Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by JamesSwift on Monday June 06, 2022 @05:34PM (#31646601)
The SEC filing (https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1418091/000119312522...) very explicitly says that Musk has _already had the opportunity to ask for clarifying information_ and that Musk _is already happy with the results of those discussions_. It explicitly explains that the only thing that Musk considers material is included in this document already, and that anything outside of this document should not be considered when evaluating the agreement.

Section 5.11 (note that "Parent" / "Acquisition Sub" refers to Musk and "Company" refers to Twitter):

> Each of Parent and Acquisition Sub has conducted, to its satisfaction, its own independent investigation, review and analysis of the business, results of operations, prospects, condition (financial or otherwise) or assets of the Company and its Subsidiaries. In making its determination to proceed with the transactions contemplated by this Agreement, including the Merger, each of Parent and Acquisition Sub has relied solely on the results of its own independent review and analysis and the covenants, representations and warranties of the Company contained in this Agreement. Parent and Acquisition Sub hereby acknowledge that, notwithstanding anything contained in this Agreement to the contrary, (i) neither the Company nor any of its Subsidiaries, nor any other Person, makes or has made or is making any express or implied representation or warranty with respect to the Company or any of its Subsidiaries or their respective business or operations, in each case, other than those expressly given solely by the Company in Article IV; and (ii) neither Parent nor Acquisition Sub is relying on any express or implied representation or warranty, or the accuracy or the completeness of the representations and warranties set forth in Article IV, with respect to the Company or any of its Subsidiaries or their respective business or operations, in each case, other than those expressly given solely by the Company in Article IV.

Re:Elon Musk asserts his “right to terminate” Twitter deal by syspec on Monday June 06, 2022 @01:55PM (#31643553)
>Try calling Twitter: "I'm doing due diligence on you guys, could you open your books to me"?

> They'll laugh at you and hung up.

Sure, but we're not the richest person on the planet, Elon Musk