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Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by mikae1 on Sunday June 05, 2022 @11:47AM (#31632027)
Please someone, sell me a feature phone with an open source OS that can run Signal. I don't need a web browser, but at least I want to be able to communicate securely with family and friends. Almost all of them have switched so Signal.
Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by jeroenhd on Sunday June 05, 2022 @12:14PM (#31632277)
The Signal project doesn't want non-official clients to connect to their network. I doubt you'll get them to release an official client for your bespoke dumbphone OS, so I'm afraid you'll have to accept unstable hackery as a way to run signal.

You may be able to create your own dumbphone by flashing something like PostmarketOS to a compatible second hand phone combined with a custom Signal client. Just apk remove the browser and any other utilities you don't need and even the librem phone might be fast enough for your use case.

Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by BaseballPhysics on Sunday June 05, 2022 @12:31PM (#31632437)
> The Signal project doesn't want non-official clients to connect to their network.

They don't encourage it but they don't ban it either. Non-official clients absolutely exist for the network, some of which use signald, a backend service and abstraction layer for the signal protocol which is neither unstable nor a hack:

https://signald.org/

Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by monocasa on Sunday June 05, 2022 @01:09PM (#31632840)
They have shut down third party clients, and reserve the right to continue that. Both use f the name signal, and connecting to their backend without it being their official client are the reasons given, and those seem to apply to signald just as much.

https://github.com/LibreSignal/LibreSignal/issues/37#issueco...

Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by BaseballPhysics on Sunday June 05, 2022 @01:14PM (#31632884)
Given that happened six years ago and multiple unofficial clients continue to exist without threat of ban, I'd suggest this one example cannot be extrapolated.

It is true that Whisper Systems runs the network and can gatekeep it as they see fit.

But your claim that Signal, as a matter of course, bans unofficial clients is objectively not true.

Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by monocasa on Sunday June 05, 2022 @01:19PM (#31632940)
Moxie has been pretty consistent on this point. He even gave a talk at C3 a couple years ago that was basically an hour long explanation for why he continued to think this way and that he hadn't changed his mind at all. https://media.ccc.de/v/36c3-11086-the_ecosystem_is_moving

Additionally, they're more or less required to go after trademark violations if they get too big.

Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by BaseballPhysics on Sunday June 05, 2022 @01:50PM (#31633253)
> He even gave a talk at C3 a couple years ago that was basically an hour long explanation for why he continued to think this way and that he hadn't changed his mind at all.

In that talk he explains why they don't decentralize their protocol or the ecosystem.

His concern is that a decentralized ecosystem means actively supporting third party implementations and having to achieve consensus when making changes, which slows down (or flat out stops) their ability to evolve the protocol and turn out new features.

That's a totally orthogonal issue to banning unofficial, unsupported clients.

> Additionally, they're more or less required to go after trademark violations if they get too big.

That's a trivial problem to solve: don't put Signal in your client name.

Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by monocasa on Sunday June 05, 2022 @02:07PM (#31633406)
The unofficial clients are part of the ecosystem. Centralizing the ecosystem means centralizing the back ends and the clients.

It's not orthogonal at all, and he's talked at length about how he views every client connected to their servers as under his control, and his dislike for unofficial clients, and his willingness to squash them if they get too big.

Before signal he was head of security at Twitter which has a similar 'squash unofficial clients if they get too big' policy.

> That's a trivial problem to solve: don't put Signal in your client name.

Signald has signal in it's client name.

Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by znpy on Sunday June 05, 2022 @06:14PM (#31635315)
Unless there’s an official statement about unofficial clients being allowed, then that single example can and must be extrapolated: it’s the only factual evidence.
Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by finnn on Sunday June 05, 2022 @04:38PM (#31634608)
oh wow HN is parroting this bullshit again.

Moxie and Signal didn't do anything other than asking LibreSignal politely to stop using their servers. They didn't "shut down" anything, and they have shown no interest in shutting down signal-cli/signald.

MobileCoin, the cryptocurrency that Signal incorporates and essentially sanctions, uses signald for their bot[0].

the Signal Matrix bridge has hundreds if not thousands of open source users, plus Element One and Beeper users, all using signald and not having any repercussions for years. The only 3rd party Signal client that's caught any flak from Signal that I'm aware of is LibreSignal.

also see: last time this came up[1]

[0] https://github.com/mobilecoinofficial/mobot/blob/dev/RUN.md

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27682490#27683374

Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by monocasa on Sunday June 05, 2022 @05:42PM (#31635104)
Literally in that thread you cite as [1] is an additional example of a third party client being removed both from google play and github.
Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by 1vuio0pswjnm7 on Sunday June 05, 2022 @04:26PM (#31634521)
Would the donor behind the Signal Foundation, Brian Acton, one of the WhatsApp founders who disagreed with the Mark Zuckerberg model of the internet, support the use of his donation to make threats or engage in legal proceedings against "non-official clients". Are there any statements from him about "non-official clients". Mike Benham ("Moxie Marlinspike") is no longer running "Signal Messenger LLC".1 Signal Foundation and its subsidiary Signal Messenger LLC appear to be the entities that control the Signal trademark. For example, the US service mark "Signal" is now registered to "Signal Technology Foundation", not "Whisper Systems LLC".

1. https://www.theregister.com/2022/01/11/signal_ceo_moxie_marl...

Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by 1vuio0pswjnm7 on Sunday June 05, 2022 @03:41PM (#31634189)
Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by betwixthewires on Sunday June 05, 2022 @08:06PM (#31636026)
I wouldn't call it unstable hackery. There's a library called signal-cli that's being used to develop a native desktop app for signal (as opposed to the absolutely horrible electron web app available officially). The server software is open source already, so it isn't hard to develop a to spec working client that only spoofs identifiers to prevent detection.
Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by znpy on Sunday June 05, 2022 @06:16PM (#31635325)
I never trusted signal.

No unofficial clients + us-based? Smells fishy.

I’d rather run Telegram and/or Matrix (ideally Matrix).

Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by borgel on Sunday June 05, 2022 @12:15PM (#31632284)
Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by SoftTalker on Sunday June 05, 2022 @11:23PM (#31637009)
I like the idea but that's a lot of money for very limited features. I understand the lack of features is the point, but a Nokia 6300 4G KaiOS phone is only $70. No Signal, but it has WhatsApp.
Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by midislack on Sunday June 05, 2022 @12:13PM (#31632264)
Do you still seriously need to give out your phone number to use it? Seems shady.
Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by BaseballPhysics on Sunday June 05, 2022 @12:36PM (#31632503)
Can you just disagree with the design choice rather than implying, without evidence, nefarious motivations?

Ongoing work is being done to enable Signal accounts without requiring a phone number (there's been a number of changes to the protocol to support this in the last 6-12 months), it's just not done yet.

Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by vorejdajo on Sunday June 05, 2022 @01:18PM (#31632926)
Design choice should be "no need to trust". If not, nefarious motivations should be assumed, unless proven otherwise.
Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by midislack on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @03:53PM (#31659287)
I have evidence. “Moxie” is simply not a person I would trust, for various reasons.
Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by Gordonjcp on Sunday June 05, 2022 @02:47PM (#31633750)
How would you identify your phone otherwise?
Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by 1vuio0pswjnm7 on Sunday June 05, 2022 @04:05PM (#31634370)
MAC address, randomised by the pocket-sized computer owner as needed. Perhaps laypersons are less able to distinguish computer networks from telephone networks than they were 20-30 years ago. Signal relies on a computer network. Signal runs on "personal computers" that are bundled with "phones", but not on phones that lack personal computers. Perhaps one day we will reach the point where "VoIP" becomes meaningless because all voice will be carried over IP.
Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by midislack on Sunday June 05, 2022 @04:17PM (#31634459)
Why do you need to identify your phone to use an online messaging service?
Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by chinathrow on Sunday June 05, 2022 @03:19PM (#31634004)
By a random ID as others [1] do?

[1] Threema

Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by donkarma on Sunday June 05, 2022 @05:31PM (#31635024)
With a username and password
Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by someoneelse9 on Sunday June 05, 2022 @04:55PM (#31634761)
Same but replace Signal with XMPP, which is far more flexible, has been around for a longer time and it's federated.

But yeah, I agree. We need a feature phone with IM support. That would be perfect.

Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by toastal on Monday June 06, 2022 @03:26AM (#31638031)
Mutida is open source but with no build instructions or information on how to hack on the device. Read the source, but don't modify it.

Since they don't implement apps, there's no way to get a secure messaging system in there as SMS will be you only option. I suppose you could set up OTR or PGP, but you'd still have no built-in ability to encrypt and decrypt.

Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by jmprspret on Monday June 06, 2022 @08:57AM (#31639861)
Buy a Pixel 5a and install GrapheneOS on it. Install signal and disable the rest of the apps. Done.
Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by zajio1am on Sunday June 05, 2022 @12:33PM (#31632469)
If it can run Signal, then it is pretty much smartphone not feature phone.
Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by toast0 on Sunday June 05, 2022 @01:10PM (#31632845)
There were a bunch of feature phones around 2014 that had an unauthorized (and poorly working) WhatsApp client. Signal of today is a bit trickier to run than WhatsApp of 2014, but it could be done. WhatsApp also ran officially on Nokia Series 40, which was a feature phone platform with apps.

There's also KaiOS which is running on phones marketted as feature phones, although it's a fork of FirefoxOS which is Android base plus an HTML+js app model (or something).

Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by Sakos on Monday June 06, 2022 @05:59AM (#31638681)
I'm not sure what you're basing this on. Java runtimes have been on feature phones for far longer than we've had smartphones. The only reason why we didn't get more capable feature phones around the time we got 3G networks is because it's the same time we got smartphones with big screens and simple touch-based UIs.
Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by usr1106 on Sunday June 05, 2022 @12:45PM (#31632614)
The OP seems to ask for only signal, not the possibility to install any other app. I would call that very much a feature phone.
Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by yjftsjthsd-h on Sunday June 05, 2022 @02:22PM (#31633531)
Depends on how you use those terms. If we're talking about processing power and how sophisticated the underlying tech has to be, then yes I'd tend to agree that the ability to run modern-ish internet-connected apps is at the equivalent of a smart phone. On the other hand, if "feature phone" is about the way the user interacts - a phone that ships with a give set of features and is not intended to run arbitrary apps - then it doesn't matter how sophisticated it is under the hood, only that it bakes in certain apps/features (phone, SMS, Signal) and that's it.
Re:Notkia: Linux phone in the shape of Nokia, with LoRa + Wi... by mkj on Monday June 06, 2022 @02:15AM (#31637679)
The signal protocol itself should run on a microcontroller. Showing images or videos would use more compute power.