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Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by jen729w on Saturday June 04, 2022 @05:14PM (#31625148)
Aaaaahhhhh I’ll play a bit of the Devil’s advocate here and say: you don’t live next door. It might well be the case that living next door to this guy is hell on Earth.

You shouldn’t just be allowed to do what you want just because you own a block of suburban land. We live in a society.

Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by giantg2 on Saturday June 04, 2022 @05:23PM (#31625233)
"It might well be the case that living next door to this guy is hell on Earth."

It's also possible that the complainers are stuck up pricks. I suppose we will never know since we aren't their neighbors.

"You shouldn’t just be allowed to do what you want just because you own a block of suburban land."

True. What actions did he do that negatively impacted his neighbors? Fruit falling off his trees? Working on a car and having some cars in just back lot? Mind you all of this was reasonably hidden as well as it is practical to do so (behind a fence).

Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by crooked-v on Saturday June 04, 2022 @05:28PM (#31625270)
The complaints called out by the city's response to this article include rat infestations.
Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by giantg2 on Sunday June 05, 2022 @09:52AM (#31630996)
Ah, I must have missed that in the article
Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by Clubber on Saturday June 04, 2022 @05:16PM (#31625166)
I seriously doubt it. Working on cars isn't noisy. Had he been a chainsaw sculptor, maybe. My comment was on the amount they thought was ok to fine him and the fact a judge didn't find it excessive.

I suspect it was more of a bureaucratic, "you will respect my authorit-a" type thing and the judge didn't keep them in check.

Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by havelhovel on Saturday June 04, 2022 @05:25PM (#31625249)
> Working on cars isn't noisy.

That is not my experience at any mechanic's shop ever! And even without all the fancy tools, my neighbor was banging on their engine for hours just last weekend. Maybe they don't know what they're doing, and therefore it doesn't count as work, but it sure was loud.

Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by cafard on Saturday June 04, 2022 @06:56PM (#31625933)
It's not clear to me that he was working on cars. Thinking about working on cars, planning to work on cars, sure.
Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by sillysaurusx on Saturday June 04, 2022 @05:17PM (#31625170)
Playing devil’s advocate is fun, but you don’t know. And it’s hard to imagine how fixing a car could be hell on earth for the neighbors. Listen to how it sounds.

It’s over half a million dollars for fixing a car, man (woman; I wish there was a gender neutral term that had the same flexibility, since “bud” just sounds aggressive).

Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by crooked-v on Saturday June 04, 2022 @05:22PM (#31625224)
The city has noted that the neighbors complained about rats, and that the guy actively refused to allow a city inspector onto the property (who could have, presumably, confirmed or denied reports of vermin infestation). That's less 'fixing a car' and more 'letting stuff sit there unattended until it fills up with animal nests'.
Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by Clubber on Saturday June 04, 2022 @06:17PM (#31625630)
That was not mentioned as anything that was part of the $573,000 fine. Not sure why you are mentioning it as a justification. Do you feel people will be ok with fining someone $573,000 for having rats in their yard vs. having vehicles?
Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by crooked-v on Saturday June 04, 2022 @06:40PM (#31625810)
It's in the city's response to this article: https://sacramentocityexpress.com/2022/04/19/city-corrects-m...

Reading between the lines here, the most likely course of events is pretty obvious: he let non-operational vehicles sit in his backyard indefinitely while 'working' on them (i.e. thinking about working on them and putting it off until next week every time), those turned into rats' nests (fed, at least in part, by the uncollected fruit from the trees on the same property), and the neighbors started complaining about rats everywhere that they couldn't do anything about because most of them were living on the guy's unmaintained property.

Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by Clubber on Saturday June 04, 2022 @07:15PM (#31626089)
Now which part of that do you think justifies a $573,000 fine?
Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by salgernon on Saturday June 04, 2022 @07:40PM (#31626317)
The part where when he was cited 8 years ago and told that the fine was $250/day for non compliance.

It’s about 90k per year.

Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by Clubber on Saturday June 04, 2022 @10:29PM (#31627388)
You didn't justify it, you enumerated it. Explain why you believe fining someone $573,000 for having cars in their back yard working on them is reasonable and justifiable.
Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by salgernon on Saturday June 04, 2022 @11:27PM (#31627734)
Because there was presumably no or minimal fine for violating this civil ordinance, should he have complied with mitigating the violation.

There are then penalties for continuing the violation.

So should the state have just given up? At what point? If there were a maximum, what would it be?

Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by Clubber on Sunday June 05, 2022 @06:01PM (#31635239)
Personally, maybe $5000, but that might be too much. The guy is 83 years old, probably living on a fixed income (social security) making side money on fixing cars, or just has cars in his back yard. The amount fined is way higher than appropriate for such a "crime." You shouldn't beat people into compliance for minor transgressions, wether that be as a police officer with a baton/taser/fist/knee, or a clerk issuing fines. When we live under a government with no empathy, as shown by this example, we're doomed.
Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by salgernon on Sunday June 05, 2022 @08:52PM (#31636299)
I don’t know why I keep coming back to this - maybe because he reminds me of people in my life that have had similar problems.

He was 75 when he was first cited, not 83.

He was given a chance to mitigate the code violation and he refused, which incurred a 250 per day penalty which he refused to pay.

He dragged it out for 7 years by being his own lawyer and and presumably has also not rectified the code violation.

As an aside, if he had actually fixed these cars they would not be in his back yard. He’s a hoarder.

I’d be willing to bet that he could settle this for less than the full amount.

There’s just something about this mindset of (a) he’s too old to be held accountable (b) free will/it’s his property to do what he wants with it (c) he’s just a hacker and we should be encouraging people to ignore civil law when it’s inconvenient.

It’s also likely that his dragging this through the court system for so many years has probably cost more than he owes - and when he dies or abandons the property the state will likely have to pay to clean up after him.

Sorry, bad mood rant today. All that being said, I have no skin in this game, it just touched a raw nerve.

Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by Clubber on Monday June 06, 2022 @12:08AM (#31637177)
Maybe they should just execute him for not respecting the state's authority. Would that satisfy your lust for a pound of flesh? Sound extreme? So does $573K, that's my point. I don't care that he dared to test the constitutionality of what the state was doing to him (we should thank him for trying), it's excessive and stupid and makes us all look like an uncivilized backwater nation that has no concept of justice or money. They should have at least put a stay on it while it was under judicial review, or capped it. Nope, gotta have our pound of flesh.

Is the cruelty of our state a reflection of our own cruelty, or do you think it's the other way around? Perhaps cruelty feeds cruelty. Maybe if we weren't so cruel all this horrible shit on the news would stop happening so much.

There's not an insignificant chance he will catch a warrant then be jailed for inability to pay the fine and if that happens, he'll probably die in prison. I guess we get to execute him after all, just not so directly. That'll teach him?

Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by Ferrotin on Saturday June 04, 2022 @05:29PM (#31625278)
It’s private property, a city inspector has no right to trespass.
Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by crooked-v on Saturday June 04, 2022 @05:35PM (#31625330)
Well, yes, sure. But if all your neighbors say that rats are breeding in your suburban backyard and you refuse to allow anyone in who could document otherwise, resulting civil action like fines should be no surprise.
Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by Shog9 on Saturday June 04, 2022 @05:21PM (#31625210)
It's trivial to imagine, if you've ever worked on a car, had a "car guy" neighbor, lived near a service shop, etc. Many cars are neither quiet nor do they confine their emissions to property boundaries.
Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by wanderingstan on Saturday June 04, 2022 @05:27PM (#31625262)
The city’s blog post about the case gives an idea of what the neighbors were experiencing;

> neighbors complaining that [the yard] had become a harborage for rats.

Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by javajosh on Saturday June 04, 2022 @05:22PM (#31625225)
I would have used "dude" and not worried about it - HN is mostly dudes and from my experience female nerds could care less if you call them dudes (and may even get a little thrill out of it.)
Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by sillysaurusx on Saturday June 04, 2022 @06:29PM (#31625722)
You wouldn’t date a dude unless you like dudes. The ones I’ve spoken with definitely don’t get a thrill out of that.
Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by javajosh on Saturday June 04, 2022 @07:01PM (#31625973)
Not sure what you mean. Not talking about dating anyone, talking about addressing someone online as "dude". Where I grew up, in LA, "dude" is used by both men and women to address each other. And unless you yourself are harmed, or know someone who is harmed by this usage, I'd avoid taking speculative umbrage first because it's bad for your heart, and second because it's a huge waste of everyone's time.
Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by sillysaurusx on Saturday June 04, 2022 @07:10PM (#31626040)
The fact that you feel it’s a waste of time is part of the problem, dude. I’m relating things that women have told me directly. It’s not speculative. It’s exhausting when you’re part of a group and constantly mislabeled.

Being friends with a diverse range of people helps with this.

Next time you feel it’s okay to refer to a woman as a dude, just remember that you wouldn’t date a dude unless you were into dudes.

If you’d like to discuss further, I’d be willing, since it’s an important topic to me. But we have to keep it high quality and substantive.

Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by Clubber on Sunday June 05, 2022 @06:07PM (#31635263)
>I’m relating things that women have told me directly. It’s not speculative. It’s exhausting when you’re part of a group and constantly mislabeled.

I don't recall any of my female friends ever getting offended by being called a "dude." I imagine they would get annoyed by some random person presuming to "protect" them from people on the internet, as if they were unable to speak up for themselves. Perhaps a bit misogamist when you think about it, no?

>Being friends with a diverse range of people helps with this.

Perhaps you should follow your own advice here if all the women you know get offended by being called "dude."

Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by javajosh on Sunday June 05, 2022 @10:00AM (#31631066)
>But we have to keep it high quality and substantive.

Let me translate. "Hi, I'm a volunteer member of the thought police in good standing, and I feel you've committed a crime, which means you have. You are resisting, and I've already explained to you the facts about your crime, and even in a polite manner (which is not required; you're welcome), and now you have the temerity to resist. Resistance to my authority is, of course, an even greater crime. Before you ignore me, realize that the penalty for both crimes is total ostracism from every part of society in which thought police have sway. Which is a lot of it."

Delusion doesn't frighten me, but shared delusion does because it can turn delusion into reality. You and your fellow thought police have amassed remarkable real power, which means your threats are not empty (interestingly, the same holds true for your empty-headed conspiracy monger counterparts on the right). The smart thing to do is to cave, at least outwardly, and beg forgiveness. But I feel this is dishonest and cowardly, and frankly it goes against every fiber of my being. I have always stood up against injustice as I perceived it, even as a child, and I'm not about to stop now just because I'm old and wise enough to see it's in my best interest.

I refuse your offer. Your interaction with me has not been "high quality and substantive" up to this point, it has been smug, close-minded, judgemental, and aggressive and without basis. The power to judge others for their speech is a valid one within a limited range. We all should act to protect those being actively abused. But judgement, and self-restraint, and real victims, are critical to maintaining the validity of that power. When there are no victims, when the word is not an epithet, when the speaker has no malice, your actions are not then to protect anyone, but to flex your newfound power and cow others to your will. With the added twist that you get to speak down to your victim "But we have to keep it high quality and substantive".

I don't recognize the kangaroo court you've devised, and to you, officer of the thought police, I say: GFY.

Also, don't call me dude. You've lost the right.

Re:Court upholds $573k penalty against CA homeowner who fixe... by ghaff on Saturday June 04, 2022 @05:21PM (#31625209)
Good fences (and even better lots of land) make for good neighbors. But in typical suburban lots, there's presumably some level of junkyard accumulation on a property (or serious degradation of a house) that causes issues for neighbors even absent HOA excesses. There are some limits that all but the most radical libertarians would agree with. It's a question of how much.