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Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by majormajor on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:18PM (#31603022)
Interestingly, labels playing games about releasing albums is an old trick for various old reasons too. https://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2010/apr/15/arti... https://www.buzzfeed.com/azafar/what-happens-when-your-favor... for a couple old references

A change in negotiation power seems like a good evolution of the industry for anyone but record industry execs.

But this "record industry is committing suicide" story that the software world likes to read about is even older than the "hollywood is committing suicide" story, since Napster was just music to start with. And yet here we are. Other than the shift in the cut (which is great!), what's going to change? There's still going to be centralization around platforms (TikTok, Spotify, radio) and a need for a partner for things like touring and marketing etc. So will the new boss look that different than the old boss?

Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by winternett on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:19AM (#31604256)
The only way to break ground is to promote the music of others that "magically" trends on TikTok non-stop.

I joined because I wanted to figure out how it worked and luckily I have been able to mostly resist the addictiveness of it by manipulating search on YouTube to find the content deeply buried on that platform.

As a label runner myself. it quickly becomes apparent that TikTok is gamified, and it really only cares about promoted content, and everyone is at the mercy of the 5 seconds of fame rule. Even people who do go viral get exhausted by the content consumption factor of the platform, but the truth is that TikTok is just the most recent and updated iteration of the social media model that really does not work for new music discovery.

Listeners, the people that actually buy music are too used to playlist culture now, no one goes searching for music because of the sheer tediousness of the process, and when any music, even total drivel is played repetitively to people, it simply ends up selling.

These platforms are a distraction from our lack of choice and individualism, and it also highlights a time when being a successful independent entrepreneur is totally under threat because not only can you be let down by the illusion that success is possible on these platforms, you can also waste lots of money on ads that don't work for much other than generating bot stats, and years of fruitless promotional work on these platforms through the opportunity they promote as "being possible". These platform timelines are focused on single posts you make, they have no interest in allowing people to follow up on your music, and they do absolutely nothing to help listeners to find your music, the work is all on us... The process from scratch every time a new platform rises is excruciating when you don't pay a lot for shortcuts, and those "shortcuts" are what skews every stat you see on platforms.

That being said, I mostly go "viral" for the memes I post over our actual music videos... It's allowed me to polish my video production skills and I do get slightly more music sales than the old days of selling CDs out of my trunk.

Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by Ntrails on Friday June 03, 2022 @05:36AM (#31606144)
> any music, even total drivel, played repetitively to people simply ends up selling.

I think there is a magic here that is under appreciated. The reality is that music often takes a few listens to appreciate, or perhaps the right mood/moment to really connect. indeed it seems to me that we learn to like that which we are exposed to, irrespective of whether someone with "taste" thinks it is drivel.

Seems like a feature not a bug

Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by iostream24 on Friday June 03, 2022 @06:40AM (#31606589)
Drivel, meaning there is other stuff out there that even YOU may find to be better, but you will never hear it because of the platform and ITS priorities.

A feature for the platform and a select few artists, but not a feature for the listener.

Elitism isn’t the issue here. Limited access outside of funnels is

Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by stemlord on Friday June 03, 2022 @06:50AM (#31606645)
People should use critical thinking skills to make deliberate choices about the content they consume
Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by kromem on Thursday June 02, 2022 @11:12PM (#31603817)
It's not committing suicide - it's just fighting over the rights to the tide pool where the water receded entirely unaware of the tsunami barreling towards them.

When the software world can convincingly create new songs that sound like the hit songs people like, but sufficiently different to dodge copyright law, then it's game over.

We don't blink an eye at efforts to do things like complete one of Beethoven's symphonies. But that is going to be increased treading a thin line when it's something like create a new album by pseudo-David Bowie. And arguably over that line when it's extending the hit debut album of a living artist who just isn't recapturing that magic.

A wall of disruptive change is barreling towards the creative industry (as well as many other industries), and yet most are blissfully unaware, fighting over marginal changes to their status quo - maybe looking at demonstrations of what can be done today saying "that's neat, but it doesn't replace me" without properly looking at how quickly the other is improving.

Copyrights are about to become worthless, and so the fight over their management is going to be a short lived victory no matter who wins.

Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by vlunkr on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:38AM (#31604356)
Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I don't believe this will happen, and unless I'm mistaken, there's absolutely 0 evidence for it. People are usually attached to the artist when it comes to music. You buy a Bowie album because it has his name on it. You learn about them, look forward to their future work, maybe go see them live, etc.

Will computers replace EDM and elevator music? I don't know, maybe, who cares?

Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by dizhn on Friday June 03, 2022 @04:15PM (#31613103)
I read an article recently that claimed that for major genres most of the songs suggested by Spotify are from "fake artists". There are people making music for Spotify for a fee which allows Spotify to keep the cut that would otherwise go to a non-Spotify entry.

It seems like the formula for an acceptable song is well understood. With the necessary push provided by Spotify these songs get streams in the millions easily. Perhaps it's cheap enough to have this music produced that they don't even have to move on to machine generation.

Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by neuralRiot on Friday June 03, 2022 @04:43PM (#31613370)
So it’s not conincidence that 70% of the US music market is old music. People might be not so stupid as thought.
Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by tenebrisalietum on Friday June 03, 2022 @06:51AM (#31606652)
Nobody under 40 is buying any albums, at least not enough to matter. Physical music media is skewed towards the pre-Napster demographic. Bandcamp is nice but no one's getting rich off of it.
Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by ushakov on Friday June 03, 2022 @04:56PM (#31613506)
Adele sells so much vinyl they had to build a factory line just for her releases
Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by smugma on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:46AM (#31609894)
Physical outsells Digital downloads. The switch happened two years ago, largely due to the growth of vinyl and streaming replacing downloads.
Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by pavo-etc on Friday June 03, 2022 @01:21AM (#31604584)
Counterpoint: Hatsune Miku
Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by TheOtherHobbes on Friday June 03, 2022 @07:01AM (#31606728)
Hatsune Miku was deliberately gamified as participatory marketing for creators, and is also representative of a specific culture.

You can't generalise to pop in general, because being a pop headliner is as much about glamour, lifestyle, fashion, and branding as it is about music.

No one wants an imaginary Bowie album, because it's a glamour-free proposition - a curiosity at best, most likely irrelevant.

People have been trying to make an Idoru for decades for now, and they always fail. You can only sell fantasy and identification when they're implicit. When you try to attach them to an artificial marketing concept it becomes impossible to suspend disbelief and make the fantasy stick.

Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by edzillion on Friday June 03, 2022 @11:00AM (#31609230)
> No one wants an imaginary Bowie album, because it's a glamour-free proposition - a curiosity at best, most likely irrelevant.

They're all going mad for an imaginary Abba concert

Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by lidavidm on Friday June 03, 2022 @08:02AM (#31607142)
Even when it comes to vocaloids like Miku, there's still attachment to the producer behind the song and not just Miku herself (and several producers have gone on from their vocaloid careers to launch "real" music careers).
Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by HKH2 on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:54AM (#31604440)
The next generations will follow pseudo-Bowie, because David Bowie is for old people.

edit: I'm imagining what they would say. I'm not here to offend Bowie fans.

Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by Joeboy on Friday June 03, 2022 @08:14AM (#31607226)
Honestly Bowie already seemed like an "old person" act when I became a fan in the '80s. When Live Aid happened in 1985, a popular take was that it was a bunch of old has-beens trying to revive their careers. Eg. Bowie, McCartney, Led Zeppelin, Queen, Elton John.
Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by peoplefromibiza on Friday June 03, 2022 @06:29AM (#31606517)
> because David Bowie is for old people

until it's new again, because young people of today are going to become old too and their kids are going to think tik tok hits are old, but will remember when their grandparents took them for a walk in the park listening to David Bowie.

Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by tomc1985 on Thursday June 02, 2022 @11:45PM (#31604032)
My god everything about this eventuality just sounds absolutely awful. Just more and more recycling of the same meme-tastic trash (which isn't that far off from the current state of pop music), writ even more large and just plain worse.

I'd like to think the future is the opposite -- artists/bands managing themselves as disparate entities, forming around small labels or even their own labels, and having someone in charge to bring the resources they need to bear for touring or performance related stuff so that they can focus on their music.

Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by tjr225 on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:12AM (#31604203)
There is no eventuality. Relax. Punks are punks because they can’t not exist. You just can’t comprehend what they’re doing next. Neither can I if it makes you feel any better.
Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by dano on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:14AM (#31604219)
More than 20 years ago MP3.com tried to educate and support the independent artist. Some would get popular on the platform and eventually get signed and remove their content from the platform - a contract with a label was and is a huge draw, even if it doesn't provide the support and compensation they expect.

On the flip side, Eve Selis is an example of an artist who broke on the scene during that time and maintained control over her art https://www.eveselis.com/ I agree that it would be great if more artists followed that path.

Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by throwk8s on Friday June 03, 2022 @09:09AM (#31607712)
In the future, artists and bands will be obsolete, there will just be music. To some extent this already happens, where tracks get copied, passed around and re-mixed so much that no one knows who did them.
Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by winternett on Friday June 03, 2022 @12:44AM (#31604388)
The recording industry is notorious for pay for play schemes.

The Internet leveled the playing field for many years.

The industry has found that social media's dominance allows them the opportunity to distract independent artists from releasing their own quality music and also distract the public from hearing indie music through the illusion that social media helps them to be seen more.

The real question that anyone who works on these platforms needs to ask themself is "Is the platform really helping me?"

The only way they help people now is if you choose promoted ads, and it takes a ton of money for an unaffiliated indie label to break into their main feed on each single post, and that's true for any of the platforms that facilitate sponsored ads.

Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by croon on Friday June 03, 2022 @08:12AM (#31607213)
> We don't blink an eye at efforts to do things like complete one of Beethoven's symphonies. But that is going to be increased treading a thin line when it's something like create a new album by pseudo-David Bowie. And arguably over that line when it's extending the hit debut album of a living artist who just isn't recapturing that magic.

As long as it's generating everything on past data it won't. New stuff is interesting because it doesn't sound like old stuff, and usually that takes over and further mutates. I'm not a fan of trap, but it wouldn't have existed if everything was generated by the current gen of software. It moves fast towards an optimum of the current generation, but we're not at actual AI, so I don't think what you describe will happen (at least yet).

Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by watwut on Friday June 03, 2022 @07:11AM (#31606780)
> When the software world can convincingly create new songs that sound like the hit songs people like, but sufficiently different to dodge copyright law, then it's game over.

Bands have been creating music like that since forever. Most of small bands are like this.

Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by hakfoo on Saturday June 04, 2022 @03:30PM (#31624217)
What worries me is that the copyright industry, being wealthy and politically connected, is not going to go down without a fight.

I'd imagine trying to ever-broaden the concept of "derivative works", so your "completely new that sounds like Bowie" falls within their catchment.

Or aggressive license mandates on the data set used to train your ML model, so you aren't legally allowed to use it to produce competitive products in the first place. (In that scenario, I can imagine a run on used-CD stores as people rush to get unencumbered source material for that purpose).

On the other hand, it definitely feels like chasing local maxima. Yeah, they can try to fence in "the best song David Bowie never wrote", but that will just drive experimentation to unowned corners of the market. The AI-driven music industry might be a pivot on the scale of going from, say, Mozart to EDM in a matter of years.

Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by creativenolo on Friday June 03, 2022 @04:41AM (#31605776)
It will be possible for computers to generate the content but will they be able to generate the culture that surrounds content.

I like your analogy of the tidal wave but without computers being able to generate the culture I don't see it coming.

Take football [or soccer]. Whole sports seasons can be simulated and are in games like Championship Manager. But these have never changed the collective & cultural shared experiences of real world sports.

Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by gregmac on Friday June 03, 2022 @02:21AM (#31604894)
> When the software world can convincingly create new songs that sound like the hit songs people like, but sufficiently different to dodge copyright law, then it's game over.

In what way?

This is already a thing in shoes, clothes, handbags, watches... Yet the original brands thrive. I'd counter that listening to "cheap knockoff" music will have a similar appeal (or lack thereof).

Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by visarga on Friday June 03, 2022 @04:27AM (#31605700)
When software can convincingly create new songs the risk will be so low that it will open up the scene for more experimentation and diversity. People tend to risk averse, AI doesn't care.
Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by Slow_Hand on Friday June 03, 2022 @01:54PM (#31611569)
Perhaps, but presumably people will still be the ones choosing whether to release or promote a given work generated by an AI, and by your reasoning they are the ones who are risk averse.

I don’t imagine many people subscribing to an AI who can generate and release countless songs on it’s own without some sort of filter to discern desirable content from undesirable.

Barring some large development, having a human to curate the generated material will be a requirement for success, or else drown your audience in a torrent of unchecked content.

Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by iratewizard on Thursday June 02, 2022 @11:30PM (#31603954)
Hollywood isn't circling the drain? The only way for them to turn a profit is sequels and remakes. The industry that was created by intrigue will be killed by executives trying to make a marvel cinematic universe
Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by notyourwork on Thursday June 02, 2022 @10:39PM (#31603601)
Its only dragging on because record labels have some of these mega mainstream artists by the balls. As contracts die, as we see more independents rise to the top mainstream record labels will die. It's just going to be slow like cable companies. Inevitable but undoubtedly.
Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by throwaway_1928 on Thursday June 02, 2022 @11:03PM (#31603768)
If artists negotiated like Drake, record labels would face a bleak future.

https://musically.com/2020/07/20/steve-stoute-if-drake-goes-...

Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by winternett on Friday June 03, 2022 @01:19AM (#31604570)
That video is advertising a digital distribution service which is owned by a well known record label exec.

The sales figures are quite exaggerated... 99% of artists never sell anywhere near the volume that Drake does.

I think it's important for artists to call out and quit pushing the mostly false profit models that the industry keeps pushing to put artists on a pedestal and to keep artists worshiping the big music industry machine.

If Russ was making $1m a week, he would not be doing self-produced promotional videos and tiktok posts about how to succeed in music. Even $1m a week for a well known music artist is not realistic in a good economy when Spotify only pays a fraction of a penny per play.

Re:Record labels dig their own grave, and the shovel is call... by peoplefromibiza on Friday June 03, 2022 @06:38AM (#31606575)
maybe

but also independent labels have much less negotiating power and human power to check for infringements or unauthorized reproduction, let alone legal authority.

All in all a good deal for them it's peanuts for a mainstream label.

(I have co-founded a small independent label)