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Re:Tim Hortons app violated laws in collection of ‘vast amou... by kennywinker on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @05:53PM (#31588632)
Whack-a-mole by the way the laws are written. You can write laws that aren't whack-a-mole. E.g. "it is illegal to sell or transfer user's data to another company without positive informed consent from the user within 1 month of the transfer"

Every time a company wants to sell on your data, they have to email you and ask permission. Not responding to that message isn't consent.

Find a loophole in that.

Re:Tim Hortons app violated laws in collection of ‘vast amou... by bushbaba on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @07:59PM (#31589682)
Company A sell data to party B. Party B resells the data to party C, D, F without informing company A. Company A & B are owned by the same conglomerate.

Your law as written would only cover company A doing the sale of data to B, but not the downstream intermediaries.

Alternatively, company A doesn't sell the raw data, and instead sells reports and anonymized data that can easily be joined with other datasets. As this is not a sale of "user data", but an aggregated, anonymous insight.

Re:Tim Hortons app violated laws in collection of ‘vast amou... by jen20 on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @10:13PM (#31590501)
“You may not sell the information of any person without explicit written consent for that instance of sale from that person. Aggregation counts as information. Rights are not transferable.”

The data industry is full of scum - nothing less than scorched earth in advertisers and brokers is sufficient at this point.

Re:Tim Hortons app violated laws in collection of ‘vast amou... by orangepurple on Thursday June 02, 2022 @01:02AM (#31591522)
I think global GDP would halve if this was implemented as written!
Re:Tim Hortons app violated laws in collection of ‘vast amou... by labster on Thursday June 02, 2022 @01:29AM (#31591669)
And yet nothing of value would be lost.
Re:Tim Hortons app violated laws in collection of ‘vast amou... by JTBooth on Thursday June 02, 2022 @02:37AM (#31592110)
This would eliminate, like, caniuse.com, wouldn't it? Information about what browser version is used by 99% of visitors to a website is an aggregate of personal information of users of a website.
Re:Tim Hortons app violated laws in collection of ‘vast amou... by labster on Thursday June 02, 2022 @05:29AM (#31592992)
They can get aggregated information as a free service. They don’t have to buy it from anyone, thus not breaking this law.

Aggregation isn’t the real problem. Honestly it’s the crosstabs that are killing privacy. Remove the correlations, and no one gets hurt.

Re:Tim Hortons app violated laws in collection of ‘vast amou... by jen20 on Thursday June 02, 2022 @11:34AM (#31596144)
Fine by me - call it a temporary correction while scummy business models are weeded out.
Re:Tim Hortons app violated laws in collection of ‘vast amou... by anamexis on Thursday June 02, 2022 @03:02AM (#31592246)
The GDPR basically does this in the EU, no?
Re:Tim Hortons app violated laws in collection of ‘vast amou... by mattnewton on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @06:10PM (#31588791)
They’ll just come up with some aggregated form of the data they claim doesn’t violate the letter of the law, sell that, and be in business for years before anyone finds out let alone tries to enforce the rules and find out of they are violating it.

This would honestly still be a huge improvement imo, as even forcing data brokers to anonymize or aggregate the data, even if it is ultimately not actually providing privacy, is still a recognition of the problem over the current system in most states.

Re:Tim Hortons app violated laws in collection of ‘vast amou... by goodoldneon on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @07:21PM (#31589393)
They'll put it in an "updated terms of service" dialog. People always just accept updated terms of service just like they always just accept the initial terms of service
Re:Tim Hortons app violated laws in collection of ‘vast amou... by taneq on Thursday June 02, 2022 @08:44AM (#31594092)
Especially if the terms of service are 147 pages of 6pt text containing nothing remotely concerning privacy, with a link buried in there somewhere to their privacy policy that then has some disingenuous weasel wording on page 14 which might imply that the "legitimate reason" they have for scraping your data is to sell it to third parties.
Re:Tim Hortons app violated laws in collection of ‘vast amou... by runnerup on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @06:03PM (#31588735)
> Find a loophole in that.

Enforcement.

Re:Tim Hortons app violated laws in collection of ‘vast amou... by m463 on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @09:38PM (#31590328)
The loophole is regulatory capture. The laws are written strongly, then watered down by self-interested companies throwing money at the legislative pipeline.

I don't know the answer to this, but it would probably be a crisis of some sort, like cambridge analytica.

It's sort of amazing how far out of hand things have gotten, with phones, cars, televisions, and more collecting data and matching it with your "dossier(s) in the cloud"

Re:Tim Hortons app violated laws in collection of ‘vast amou... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @08:04PM (#31589722)
> You can write laws that aren't whack-a-mole. E.g. "it is illegal to sell or transfer user's data to another company without positive informed consent from the user within 1 month of the transfer"

The problem is people are stupid and uninformed about giving consent. You're the one trying to loophole around that.

If you actually want to regulate this the way you describe, you have to do it by removing peoples' right to give certain consents. For example, nobody may give consent for more than 6 months for the use or transfer of their data.

This is a big deal! You're removing a free mode of contracting. But if you think about it, we do it all the time. That it has a higher burden of proceeding around new technologies is a large reason why American (where we are careful about rulemaking) and Chinese (no rule of law) tech companies are ascendant. But at a certain point, the usual rulemaking frameworks may need to be applied.

Re:Tim Hortons app violated laws in collection of ‘vast amou... by ABCLAW on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @08:34PM (#31589927)
>The problem is people are stupid and uninformed about giving consent. You're the one trying to loophole around that.

Not really. People have a limited amount of time to deal with issues and aren't trained legally. This doesn't make them stupid. Their inability to suss out all possible downsides of a set of EULAs across various products for a service they're looking for isn't stupidity; it's just an inherently complex space that requires a lot of time and specialist knowledge.

This is one of the main ideas behind consumer law; certain contracts are inherently slanted towards those who draft the contract, therefore we remove some of their freedom to abuse consumers by placing limits on the clauses we're willing to enforce.

That lack of willingness to place restraints on these types of freedom has less to do with the inherent difficulty of restraining freedom of contract and has more to do with the fact that the harm is distributed diffusely amongst a massive swath of consumers, vs felt acutely by specific data aggregators so one side advocates far more for their position - even if that position is antisocial in nature.

Re:Tim Hortons app violated laws in collection of ‘vast amou... by mr-wendel on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @09:46PM (#31590372)
I think good arguments often have to begin with an assertion that "we aren't as dumb as we tend to think" and introduce color that gives the average person the benefit of the doubt. This post does that nicely.

> "Their inability to suss out all possible downsides of a set of EULAs..."

This is the part I quibble with, however. This assumes folks even read legal-speak. Privacy laws have undermined this by forcing more text and more "I see, I agree, go away" links/checkboxes/buttons in front of people. The problem isn't the EULAs, the problem is that no sane person can (or should) keep up with it.

Yes, sometimes people can be surprising. My wife has an awesome t-shirt from MailChimp from a not-so-hidden "if you read this, you get a free shirt!" clause she found in their legal stuff. But relative to the amount of cheap "consent" given, this is a huge outlier.

That said, I also have to give kudos to some of the lawyers I've worked with in the GDPR/CCPA/etc era. At least at the point of purchase, there was no better corporate consumer advocate of "boil it down to two or three crystal clear sentences and link to the details, which must cut to the chase" to be found.

Re:Tim Hortons app violated laws in collection of ‘vast amou... by ABCLAW on Thursday June 02, 2022 @06:05PM (#31601109)
>This assumes folks even read legal-speak.

They obviously don't, but you're missing a key idea; why aren't they?

You can't benefit from reading without expert knowledge, and the cost is a massive time-sink. Even lawyers, with experience reviewing these types of documents, take a substantial amount of time to get through them and note them up.

If EULAs said: "In exchange for this free Solitaire App, we're going to reserve the right to inform your insurance company about which doctors you visit and the government about which abortion providers your phone keeps going to" you'd obviously read it because you can understand what's going on and you'd understand the exchange in a reasonable time-frame.

This situation doesn't exist because people are stupid. People are smart, which is why they aren't wasting their time trying to go to law school each time they need software.

Re:Tim Hortons app violated laws in collection of ‘vast amou... by aaaaaaaaata on Thursday June 02, 2022 @07:25AM (#31593599)
Mailchimp has been sounding cooler all the time, anyone ever had a bad experience with them, inside or out? I'm too close to hero worship.
Re:Tim Hortons app violated laws in collection of ‘vast amou... by tintor on Thursday June 02, 2022 @11:46AM (#31596315)
user's data and any information derived from that data (ie. aggregating, or training a model on it)