Those downvoting please note here why it's OK to ask people to work above 40 hours while also squandering good peoples time doing joke products. Rather than turn the screws on your employees publicly why not simple cut out the non-essential projects and publicly note so? The first approach makes it look like your employees are slacking and need to pick up the slack, the second takes responsibility on himself.

> ... while also squandering good peoples time doing joke products.

This is irrevalent. No matter employees should not be expected to work more than 40 hrs a week.

Do you consider all marketing to be a waste of time? Because that's what the flamethrowers are. And they're fantastic.

They aren't marketing. They don't sell cars. It's easy to just call everything marketing, but show me hard data on how fossil fueled flamethrowers sell more electric cars and I'll bow out immediately.

PR is marketing, and Elon Musk 100% nailed PR. Tesla doesn't do advertising. You know why? Because they 100% nail PR.

Some people claim tesla doesn't do marketing because they don't do advertising, but that is completely wrong. PR is marketing.

Shooting a Tesla into orbit was just brilliant PR. Every news outlet covered it. And for them, because they both have SpaceX and Tesla, it was both unique, and very doable.

And the flamethrower the same thing. We are talking about it now, right? Elon Musk remains at the top of the news pages. Incredible how he can pull that off. If you think PR is easy, try doing PR. I tried doing PR, and I can tell you it's fucking hard.

Previously the stunts were smart. Now, I'm not so sure. He's in the news cycle at the moment for consistently negative reasons. It's deterred me from buying a Tesla. He might get some traction with a new set of customers by playing the culture wars, but I'd guess he's alienating a number of people who would've otherwise been very interested. Creates a great opportunity for rival manufacturers as they (slowly) bring products to market.

Yes, we're talking about it, but I don't and won't own a Tesla product. I don't think it's incredible, it's easy. What's incredible is the work product of the engineers and technicians they work for him. Not a man baby making sharp pointy things that burn down the house. That doesn't take vision or knowledge, just no one to tell you "no".

> I don't think it's incredible, it's easy.

I'll give you $5000 if you can get my product rpgplayground.com on top of the mainstream media. If you find it easy, I will be happy to pay you the $5k.

Getting downvoted here. Putting your money where your mouth is doesn't seem to be appreciated here on HN.

Anyway, anybody selling a product will tell you that building the product is the easy part. But of course, if you never ran a company, it's easy to think that the engineering is the hardest part.

It would be easy given his resources (publicist, etc.) I don't have those same resources.

It would be like me saying it's easy to design a 3d printed box, given I have solidworks and the skillset. It doesn't mean it's hard just because someone else may not have those resources. It's still easy.

It’s not easy; even with the resources. The Kardashians don’t have the level of resources (money) Warren Buffet or Bill Gates have; but have at least 10x the amount of coverage and top headlines. Elon Musk BUILT his PR. He has some 90M followers on Twitter, that took over a decade to build. Tesla and SpaceX have both been on the verge of complete bankruptcy SEVERAL times.

The fact that Tesla is the ONLY Fortune 100 company in the world without a Public Relations department and STILL manages to be #1 in the news—globally—nearly every single day… It’s insane for you to suggest it’s all because of “resources.”

Why doesn’t Rivian have that kind of coverage? I don’t even know who the CEO of Rivian is. Do you know who runs Intel or AMD? Can you tell me who runs Saudi Aramco or Samsung? What’s Samsung’s latest and most exciting product? What’s Tesla’s?

You probably know, even if you don’t want to admit you know. Cybertruck is one. They got solar roofs, a new Roadster… The craziest part is… You will probably make fun of how these products were already supposed to be in production; but they haven’t been for YEARS, and they are STILL among the most anticipated and highest in-demand products that barely exist. We are talking tens, if not hundreds, of billions of dollars in revenue of anticipation. WITHOUT ADVERTISING.

The only other company to do that well without advertising is Apple. They have never advertised a new phone before its release. Ever. The iPad was the first iOS device to receive advertising before launch.

"The only other company to do well without advertising is Apple"

Apple heavily advertises. They have many iconic ads that are taught in history classes. The 1984 ad, the white iPad headphone print and ads, the "shot on a iphone" billboards all over SF. Where is this coming from? Apple spent $65 million on search ads in 2020 alone. This is not "not advertising" Apple spends billions a year on advertising. My source noted below specifically contradicts your comments about Apples advertising (or lack there of). It states that they advertise for every new product release, including all phones (which I can personally vouch for as well having personally seen many ads for the newest iPhone tablet the time).

Earlier in this discussion folks say that flamethrowers and boy rescuing submarines are PR, which is marketing, which is advertising. In this comment you note that Tesla and Apple do so well without advertising or marketing.

This has become a circular argument. It's clear that the folks backing Musk are not providing valid arguments with sources. The response is ti saybthat Apple doesn't advertise, but they do. This is all neither here nor there bit what is clear - Elon is loosing his golden boy status in the valley and in popular culture. This is the beginning of his fall from grace, and its his own fault.

Sources: https://titandigital.com/4-powerful-ps-need-know-apples-mark...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/appleinsider.com/articles/21/10...

https://medium.com/seedx-digital-marketing-guru/why-apple-sp...

> It's still easy.

Congrats, you reached the "Peak of Mount Stupid" on the Dunning-Kruger Effect graph.

Just admit it, you know nothing about marketing or PR.

It's true, I don't. But that doesn't mean he does. He clearly chooses to do PR and marketing differently than 95% of all other businesses. I'm highlighting that, and saying maybe that "good PR" doesn't always equal good for his employees, customers or community. We need to take into account the cost, not just seek PR for PR sake.

> But that doesn't mean he does. He clearly chooses to do PR and marketing differently than 95% of all other businesses.

Probably the reason why he's so successful. Ever considered that?

No marketing, no customers. No customers, no business. No business, no employees.

My point is that extra success you point to above and beyond his peers isn't worth what he does to get it. He could be 90% as successful and 100% less of a dick and that would be a better tradeoff for him, the people that work with and interact with him, the people he harasses, and the rest of us.

> a man baby

> It would be easy given his resources (publicist, etc.) I don't have those same resources.

How did he get those resources? Start there. Do what he did to get those resources..

Or don't. Just post online like a hater instead.

Leaving alone whether or not people pointing out definicies in Musk are doing so from a place of uninformed jealousy you seem either uninformed on Musk or in a rather out of touch priveleged position. Start at being born to an emerald mine owner (or equivalent) and use that capital for your first business is not advice that many people can follow, regardless of Musk executing the steps after that to the point that he was richest man in the world.

> Start at being born to an emerald mine owner (or equivalent) and use that capital for your first business

Zip2 was the first company Elon started: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1211064937004589056

"We started Zip2 with ~$2k from me plus my overclocked home-built PC, ~$5k from my bro & ~$8k from Greg Kouri (such a good guy — he is greatly missed).

My Dad provided 10% of a ~$200k angel funding round much later, but by then risk was reduced & round would’ve happened anyway."

> from a place of uninformed jealousy

"Daddy provided the capital for his first business" seems both uninformed and jealous.

Your points here serve to back up the points of the comment you replied to, not yours.

That's probably because your standards are different than mine. I don't call a $20K investment "capital from an emerald mine owner", I call that "pocket money".

Your consultancy firm probably earns more than that in a month. Or not?

I can connect you with people that do this. I get calls from them weekly. They offer to write an article about me, my work, my companies, and get it published in a few fairly famous places. All this in exchange for a few thousand dollars. I also know a publicist that was able get an article written about me in a local business journal. I'm not going to invest the funds up front for you, but I'd be happy to connect you with these folks and I'm sure you can get what you want, or close, within your budget. I just don't want to be the middle man.

Get calls weekly? Which companies do you own?

I cannot reply to your comment/question below as it's nested too deeply.

Information about me, my company, and other companies which I'm co-founder and/or co-owner of can be found by googling my name and finding my website, looking at my profile on HN which has links, or searching the patent database for my name.

So you're a freelance mechanical engineer.

Are you sure those calls you get are not just scams?

I run a consultancy (different than simply being a freelancer), among many other things.

Perhaps we take this discussion offline? You now have my contact information. I'm happy to answer any further questions via email, and make the appropriate introductions to get you your PR.

No thanks, I'm wasting enough time here already.

When I want to hire a PR firm, I'll hire a real one. Not one that is desperately calling people, only to get rejected every time.

When someone responds to your defense of Elon schtick, you mockingly dismiss them? I see you’re trying to be Elon already.

I know enough about PR to know that the other person doesn't know enough about PR.

So yeah, when they make suggestions about PR, I indeed dismiss them.

If he claims Elon Musk knows nothing about mechanical design, I'm willing to listen.

Academically, it would fall under “guerrilla marketing”. It is a high risk, high reward technique. If it pays off, you can get quite a lot of attention for very little money.

No, but I consider these specific things a waste of time.

It's not okay to write a disingenuous comment that assumes false facts and then act like you're on a high horse while saying it.

Forget flamethrowers and cave rescue, the amount of time he spends on Twitter is crazy for the CEO of two large complex companies, soon to be three.

Can you tell me how many minutes a day Elon is on twitter?

Three hours a day

No offense but it is impossible for you or I to estimate how they should run their company and whether this decision is good or bad as to their bottom line. We have almost zero knowledge about their internal workings of nearly what 100,000 people do and what projects should get cut and how hard employees are working or should be working and we can only opine on whether you or I prefer or don't prefer to work remote ourselves. If you had data that people were less productive from home, would you change your mind on your personal business? It's odd to assume that he would not have that data before making this decision.

That's exactly it. I'm not viewing it from the point of view that optimizing the bottom line is paramount and everything else be damned.

I'm mistook that you were. You said pretty much he needs to do some math on how he spend his own time because he was wasting it in your opinion and from my read it was an implication that this was a bad decision for employees and the company. Maybe employees prefer having fun, being on the bleeding edge of tech, being part of a profitable company an d job security, and earning higher wages over the convenience of being allowed to work from home. I'm not saying every does or doesn't but this doesn't feel like an everything else be damned scenario just requiring most employees to show up.

> by a leader that spends time on flamethrowers and cave rescue submarines

You are grossly misinformed by how Elon spends his time and seem to have read a few headlines years ago and assume that’s all he does.

I suggest you listen to some of his interviews where people specifically ask how many hours he works a week, and on what, and you’ll soon realize, no one, even factory workers can match his work ethics and time spent at the company.

He takes his own medicine religiously, that you can count on.

You are assuming that everything Musk says is genuine.

I give people the benefit of doubt until I see a contradiction. So far, he's been genuine over the 8 years that I've been following him and his ventures.

> So far, he's been genuine over the 8 years that I've been following him and his ventures.

If that were true we'd have had fully autonomous FSD 5 years ago, to say nothing of "pedo guy". Over the last 8 years I've seen nothing to suggest Elon is a reliable source of information about anything.

> If that were true we'd have had fully autonomous FSD 5 years ago

Genuine doesn’t mean what you think it means. FSD is late because Elon underestimated it while working on it as fast as Tesla can, not because he’s a liar who’s walking his dog around the office instead of running the business and rebranding Siemens machines as his own.

If he had only said it once, sure. But Elon has repeatedly, year after year made the same claim only for it to turn out false. So either he's lying knowing full well it won't come to fruition, or he's incapable of accurately assessing progress. I strongly suspect the former, especially given his relationship with the truth on other things, but the latter makes him just as unreliable source of information.

> he's incapable of accurately assessing progress

He has admitted time and time again, on twitter and in interviews, that FSD has been a series of "local maximas" which each time given him and his team a false sense of reaching the full self driving capability. So yes, when pushing the edge of tech, it's not easy to estimate timelines and he's admitted that. What more do you want? For him to call it quits or get into magic and pull rabbits out of a hat?

A single space telescope, the James Webb's, which is far less involved than FSD (runs in controlled environment, albeit harsh, doesn't interact with anything but well known objects and is produced once with little cost optimization, since it's not sold in mass volumes and need not attract customers) has been delayed time and time again and run over budget by multiple factors, amounting to billions of dollars. No one said along the way that the project leaders were liars who knew they couldn't build the telescope but just wanted to spend tax payers money.

"pedo guy" was him overreacting to a direct attack on his employees and him work after Musk was directly requested to do the work by rescue divers and government officials on the project.

Most of the takes on that event drastically misrepresent the facts in order to make him look worse than any other normal human getting caught up in a flare of emotion after having something important attacked.

You do have to wonder about a company where the CEO says one thing about FSD to the public, and one of their executives involved daily on the regulatory side tells the regulators, in writing, something wildly different.

I don’t, but his success across now four (five?) industries and being one of the wealthiest if not the wealthiest man in the world and being self made didn’t happen by accident.

Please do inform us then. How does he spend his time? How do you know such things?

> How do you know such things?

Elsewhere here, you said you've watched his interviews and yet you missed him mention, more than the dozen times over the past few years, how he split his times between his companies?

> Please do inform us then.

I've pointed you to where you can find that out yourself. If you actually care to learn something, you'll spend the time. But if you're content with your preconceptions and the media's take on Elon, whatever I say here will fall on deaf ears.

Ok, let's take 168 hours in a week. He's got SpaceX, Twitter, Tesla and Boring company. So he's at best working 42 hours a week on each, or there is atleast one company there where he's working less than 42 hours. Oh, and that's assuming he doesn't sleep, and ignores the fact that we can publicly see it's probably 20 hours sleeping 118 hours on twitter and about 10 hours on each of the others right now.

I'm seriously amazed people even discuss this. When the employer and the owner of a business hires someone, the employer sets the terms of employment, not the other way around. If the hired person doesn't like the terms, he/she can just walk away and find a more suitable job.

Imagine hiring a house cleaner, who would insist you be present in the house when the house is being cleaned?

This is of course true, but hiring strong engineers is a very competitive market these days. Especially in hot fields like ML for self-driving cars.

That's really the root of this discussion - can you offer worse terms than other employers you're competing with for talent, while also being kind of a dick about it, without hurting the success of your company?

> can you offer worse terms than other employers you're competing with for talent, while also being kind of a dick about it, without hurting the success of your company?

Yes! When you have leverage, you can. What's the leverage? The amazing opportunity to work on tech that will power the future and all the challenges that come with it. Furthermore, ability to work in an environment where you are not restricted by traditional business hierarchy and practices that inhibit innovation. I know dozens of Tesla employees who've echoed the same sentiment, saying how much of more freedom and autonomy they have at Tesla, compared to their previous employers.

Also what's viewed as "being a dick" is clearly relative. I see a frank and no BS memo which is closed to interpretation and doesn't waste anyone's time. As The Wolf puts it:

> if I'm curt with you it's because time is a factor ... so pretty please with sugar on top, clean the fucking car

He's previously stated that he works over 80 hours a week, and that less than 10% of his time is spent on things that aren't SpaceX and Tesla.

How does he have time to play Eldon Ring?