News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Economic Pessimism Growing in U.S. by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @03:06PM (#31573520)
>Assets grow faster than wages.

How long will this continue though? This can't be sustainable forever.

At one point, you won't have any money to buy any assets if your wages are barely covering your food and shelter, and so we'll go back to feudalism where only those few with inherited wealth owned assets and everyone else was a slave for life.

Re:Economic Pessimism Growing in U.S. by thebradbain on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @03:16PM (#31573653)
Historically, that's when a revolution or regime-change happens. This is something the richest of the rich have either forgotten or mistakenly think they'll be insulated from.

Like the line from Titanic when the extravagantly wealthy Calvert is trying to buy himself onto a lifeboat – "Your money can't save you any more than it can save me."

Re:Economic Pessimism Growing in U.S. by aksss on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @03:29PM (#31573812)
Depends on the scope of “history”. You could also say that historically that’s when a civilization gets put under a feudal yoke for scores of generations. Successful revolution by “the workers” is more the exception than the norm in the story of humanity, I should think. there are plenty of places in the world that are ruled by truly oppressive regimes, and I think most of the world, most of the time, has looked like that, not like the developed “West”.
Re:Economic Pessimism Growing in U.S. by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @03:32PM (#31573862)
>not like the developed “West”

The west is like this today (apart from the countries that built themselves up on colonial empires of theft) in part also to a lot of violent and sometimes deadly revolts against the ruling class.

US, UK, France, Italy, Germany, etc. all saw bloody strikes and protests, in order to get fair living conditions. Noting was ever given out of pure generosity, without a fight.

Re:Economic Pessimism Growing in U.S. by dragonwriter on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @03:45PM (#31574004)
> The west [...] (apart from the countries that built themselves up on colonial empires of theft)

That's...barely a thing at all.

> US, UK, France, Italy, etc.

If those are your examples, you really don't need the “apart from...”

Re:Economic Pessimism Growing in U.S. by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @04:26PM (#31574497)
My point was that all the theft from colonialism didn't really improve things much back home for the average folk in those countries later on, as all the stolen wealth ended up in the hands of the few elites, and the working class people were left to sort it out for themselves.

The wealth inequality was absolutely insane. It's not like thanks to colonialism, everyone living in the UK victorian era could afford to prop their feet up, live off free stuff taken from the colonies, and never have to work a day in their lives. Quite the contrary, they were working long hours living in poor conditions.

The working class only saw lifestyle improvements when they fought back for them.

Re:Economic Pessimism Growing in U.S. by goodpoint on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @05:06PM (#31574959)
Spot on!

During the industrial revolution life expectancy in UK was among the lowest in the world for the poorest industrial workers. Inequality was incredibly high.

Painting people in a country as being all benefiting (or being harmed) from an external factor is very misleading

Re:Economic Pessimism Growing in U.S. by tablespoon on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @04:18PM (#31574411)
>> At one point, you won't have any money to buy any assets if your wages are barely covering your food and shelter, and so we'll go back to feudalism where only those few with inherited wealth owned assets and everyone else was a slave for life.

> Historically, that's when a revolution or regime-change happens. This is something the richest of the rich have either forgotten or mistakenly think they'll be insulated from.

Revolutions aren't always successful. If the rich control the state by corrupting democratic institutions and remove from the peasantry the tools to pursue "politics with other means," they might actually get away with a transition to something like feudalism.

Re:Economic Pessimism Growing in U.S. by hotpotamus on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @04:43PM (#31574716)
I sort of wonder what you mean by tools to pursue politics by other means. Presumably you mean guns, but the thing is that in the US the plutocrats created their own epistemic ecosystem and got all the people whose identity are wrapped up in guns (and own the majority of them) to buy into it - remember how we're not allowed to call them plutocrats since that's disrespectful; the preferred term is "job-creator". So now anytime the rabble get a bit restless, the job-creators just get another upper income tax cut. So I guess I'm curious when you say tools if you mean guns or information.
Re:Economic Pessimism Growing in U.S. by slothtrop on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @03:29PM (#31573817)
War, actually. Inequality in the Victorian era was high, after the early 20th century labor movements and a couple of world wars wages greatly improved.

There have been many periods of high inequality and stagnation in history broken up by war. Since war is not a preferable catalyst in this day and age, we have to opt for organized labor.

Re:Economic Pessimism Growing in U.S. by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @05:22PM (#31575113)
>Since war is not a preferable catalyst in this day and age

Excuse me, but where have you been in the past 3 months?

Re:Economic Pessimism Growing in U.S. by slothtrop on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @08:22PM (#31576549)
Well war in Ukraine isn't going to clean the slate for the Western world, so I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean.
Re:Economic Pessimism Growing in U.S. by mempko on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @03:09PM (#31573554)
All the important stuff is already owned by the few. It will just get worse. Eventually will lead to a revolution. That's the end game if it keeps going. There needs to be a jubilee and a 'new new' deal to prevent it. However, people in the USA have to acknowledge they are in an empire that's declining. There will be a lot of pain. Look at the British for what that looks like.
Re:Economic Pessimism Growing in U.S. by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @03:16PM (#31573656)
> Eventually will lead to a revolution.

I doubt it.

1) That's why the west are pushing for forms of government surveillance disguised as Covid tracking, or anti-terrorist surveillance, or anti-child-porn surveillance, or whatever flavor of the month the current "enemy" happens to be, to make sure they can see it coming and stamp out any potential public dissidence before it hits the elites.

2) Unlike the French or Soviet revolutions from a couple of hundred years ago, which saw the deaths of the elites, the elites of today can travel to remote places using planes to distance themselves from the angry mobs, and rule their empires remotely using the internet. Huge game changers compared to the past.

Re:Economic Pessimism Growing in U.S. by pm90 on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @03:24PM (#31573764)
There was an insurrection that came dangerously close to overthrowing US democracy. Some have argued that its still underway.

Revolution isn't just spontaneous popular protests leading to regime change. It can also be further slides authoritarianism.

Re:Economic Pessimism Growing in U.S. by thebradbain on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @03:24PM (#31573749)
Every, and I mean _every_, successful revolution was due to the governments/rulers/aristocrats/elites thinking they could successfully quell a revolution with force and distance themselves from the mobs.

In the French revolution, which took place in Paris, the elites all lived outside the city. The royal family lived in Versailles. No one went into the city for any day to day business. When the revolution happened, the nobility fled, and they directed their armies to seize and starve the city. They were using all their wealth and power to quell and flee. Much good that did them.

Putting the present elite at an even stronger disadvantage, though, is that Western billionaires only have power because the people allow them to -- land, money, stocks, it's all owned on paper. If a revolution is successful, there is no reason a billionaire's wealth or power couldn't be wiped away at the swipe of a pen. Elon Musk does not have enough of a private army nor his wealth in gold to defend his claim to anything.

Re:Economic Pessimism Growing in U.S. by runnerup on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @03:31PM (#31573852)
I somewhat disagree with your premise but worth noting some American billionaires do in fact have their own armed forces:

https://www.indiatimes.com/amp/technology/news/sergey-brin-s...

Re:Economic Pessimism Growing in U.S. by thebradbain on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @03:37PM (#31573912)
I should have clarified that these men likely do have very qualified and extensive personal security teams. However, they wouldn't stand a chance against the resources of a sovereign nation.
Re:Economic Pessimism Growing in U.S. by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @03:43PM (#31573966)
>Elon Musk does not have a private army nor his wealth in gold to defend his claim to anything.

People like Musk are not the world's ruling elites though. He and other tech billionaires are the richest people who's wealth is in public companies, so that's why they get all the visibility and media attention, but they're not the richest people in absolute terms, nor are they ruling elites, quite far from them.

The ruling elites, the richest and most power people in the world, are the likes of the British monarchy, Vladimir Putin, Saudi family, and other such monarchs and dictators who basically own nearly entire countries in both land and valuable resources and also control militaries to defend their assets and their position. They never appear in Forbes riches people because, unlike tech billionaires, most of their wealth is highly secretive and well hidden from the rabble, and for good reason too.

Putin is estimated to be worth way more than Musk. And he also has an army at his disposal. Same with the Saudi family, they have an army and their wealth could probably make Musk look like he should be put on social security.

Re:Economic Pessimism Growing in U.S. by danans on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @04:16PM (#31574393)
> Elon Musk does not have enough of a private army nor his wealth in gold to defend his claim to anything.

In principle you are right, they don't have armies per se. But don't let the "everyman" persona put on by Musk or even Buffett fool you.

Billionaires must have extensive (and probably armed) security operations protecting them and their families. It would be irrational for them not to have that. Agreed that they might not be able to prevent their factories or other industrial assets from being seized (Just ask the oligarchs who fell afoul of Putin and fled).

Re:Economic Pessimism Growing in U.S. by nightski on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @03:15PM (#31573635)
I don't feel like that is accurate at all. The most valuable assets by far are successful companies. While it is true that they are owned in large part by a "few" (relative to the total population), that few changes often. We've seen massive changes in wealth in just the past decade alone, particularly in tech.
Re:Economic Pessimism Growing in U.S. by spiralx on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @05:27AM (#31579718)
The most valuable assets by far - accounting for over half of all wealth - are land in highly desirable locations, because both individuals and companies have to pay rent while the landlord pays basically nothing in upkeep in perpetuity while only facing the unlikely risk that rents might drop to zero if the land becomes undesirable - not very likely if you own part of downtown New York, London or any major city.
Re:Economic Pessimism Growing in U.S. by jjoonathan on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @03:26PM (#31573788)
Yeah, but the systematic problems come from the shape of the pyramid not the identity of the people at the top, so churning them doesn't help.
Re:Economic Pessimism Growing in U.S. by jjoonathan on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @03:16PM (#31573648)
Exponential growth in a constrained system. A microphone next to a speaker.
Re:Economic Pessimism Growing in U.S. by PartiallyTyped on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @03:25PM (#31573771)
The speaker won't break, it will reach a limit and that's it. Otoh, this constrained system will break.
Re:Economic Pessimism Growing in U.S. by jjoonathan on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @03:36PM (#31573906)
Speakers can break :)

The behavior when it doesn't break is actually more informative, though. At first, all aspects of the music experience exponential growth. Once clipping sets in, the growth of the loudest / highest gain frequencies continues, but now at the expense of every other frequency. Eventually one frequency wins and the system devolves into the distorted shriek of a single fundamental frequency and its harmonics.

The idea here is that we can tell where we are between "free growth" vs "starting to clip" by looking to see how well the rising tide is fulfilling its promise of floating all boats.

Re:Economic Pessimism Growing in U.S. by pydry on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @03:34PM (#31573874)
This has been a pretty normal state of affairs for many societies throughout history. This whole egalitarian "most wealth is earned" thing is if anything more exceptional - it only really started in WW2.