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Re:Dragonflydb – A modern replacement for Redis and Memcached by jitl on Monday May 30, 2022 @04:41PM (#31563414)
Do you think AGPL offers such protection? I think even AGPL is fine for Amazon et al, they are happy to dump the code somewhere while selling a managed service with enough wrapper layers. But AGPL is toxic also for self-hosters who aren’t trying to build a managed hosting service, since it applies equally against all parties.
Re:Dragonflydb – A modern replacement for Redis and Memcached by goodpoint on Monday May 30, 2022 @06:10PM (#31564173)
> AGPL is toxic also for self-hosters who aren’t trying to build a managed hosting service

Absolutely not. First of all, you can always use any software under AGPL as released without any limitation.

Secondly, if you were to make changes and release them you can still run it any way you want.

Thirdly, if you are making changes for internal use, and for some reasons your really want to keep them secret, you can STILL run the database to your heart's contents as long as you don't provide it as a service to the public.

AGPL is much more permissive than people think. It's just providing a degree of protection to developers and and users from patent trolls and other uncooperative entities.

Re:Dragonflydb – A modern replacement for Redis and Memcached by jitl on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @12:20AM (#31566066)
Exactly - the grandparent is asking “can a true copy left / Free Software license protect a young startup from Amazon reselling their software”, and my assertion is no, it cant.
Re:Dragonflydb – A modern replacement for Redis and Memcached by goodpoint on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @07:25AM (#31568277)
AGPL strikes a balance between the needs of users, upstream and intermediate developers.

Here [A]GPL is Schrödinger's license. At the same time people complain that it's too restrictive and not restrictive enough.

If you want to completely prohibit any SaaS usage closed source is the only option, like BSL. And I'll stay away from your software.

Re:Dragonflydb – A modern replacement for Redis and Memcached by josephcsible on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @12:27AM (#31566104)
Can you give an example of an AGPL product being resold by Amazon or someone like them?
Re:Dragonflydb – A modern replacement for Redis and Memcached by jitl on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @11:25AM (#31570629)
MongoDB is the most famous example to transition from AGPL to a closed license. MongoDB was AGPL until October 16, 2018. Since October 16, 2018, it uses Server Side Public License (SSPL), which they authored.

From their FAQ:

> The market is quickly moving to consume most software as a service. This is a time of incredible opportunity for open source projects, with the potential to foster a new wave of great open source server side software. The reality, however, is that once an open source project becomes interesting, it is too easy for large cloud vendors to capture all the value but contribute nothing back to the community.

HN discussion from 2018: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18229452

FAQ: https://www.mongodb.com/licensing/server-side-public-license...

Today, MongoDB is an AWS partner: https://aws.amazon.com/quickstart/architecture/mongodb/

The most recent notable example of open-source software going closed because of Amazon specifically is Elasticsearch, which switched from Apache to SSPL. The announcement blog post was titled "Amazon: NOT OK - why we had to change Elastic licensing".

HN discussion from 2021: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25833781

FAQ: https://www.elastic.co/pricing/faq/licensing

Re:Dragonflydb – A modern replacement for Redis and Memcached by josephcsible on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @11:55AM (#31571056)
MongoDB is definitely an example. Did switching licenses actually "fix" their "problem" though? And ElasticSearch doesn't count since it was a pushover license before and not the AGPL.
Re:Dragonflydb – A modern replacement for Redis and Memcached by adastra22 on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @04:35AM (#31567271)
Mastodon is AGPL and there are various cloud hosting providers.

There really aren't that many popular AGPL server software to start with though, so it's an unfairly biased question.

Re:Dragonflydb – A modern replacement for Redis and Memcached by rglullis on Monday May 30, 2022 @04:57PM (#31563565)
AGPL does not require source distribution of your application, unless the AGPL code is accessed directly by your users.

So, if this were AGPL and I have an closed webservice that uses this, it is in the clear.

Re:Dragonflydb – A modern replacement for Redis and Memcached by jitl on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @12:21AM (#31566072)
But then Amazon is free to host this as a paid service and take all the money.
Re:Dragonflydb – A modern replacement for Redis and Memcached by rglullis on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @02:54AM (#31566780)
Redis is doing just fine, PostgreSQL is doing just fine. They are both real open source.

The performance improvements are not worth the legal/compliance overhead of adding non-FOSS to my stack. Much less so if the performance improvements are due just to some optimization choice in the underlying system. In the next 5 years, it will be easier to have Redis adding the io_ring optimizations than for this new project to become uniquely better.

Re:Dragonflydb – A modern replacement for Redis and Memcached by jitl on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @09:15AM (#31569105)
Now I’m curious where you work and how compliance requires FOSS!
Re:Dragonflydb – A modern replacement for Redis and Memcached by rglullis on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @09:53AM (#31569493)
You misunderstood. What I am saying is that is precisely because I am working on projects of different sizes and potentially with different customers, I do not want to have the burden of having to check if the projects have specific compliance requirements.

I have a SaaS [0], my own (AGPL, by the way) open source project [1] and also work have the occasional contract job. It's much easier to say "just use Redis because it is FOSS and it gets the job done" across the board then to try to special-case the tools based on licensing requirements.

[0]: https://communick.com

[1]: https://hub20.io

Re:Dragonflydb – A modern replacement for Redis and Memcached by adastra22 on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @04:30AM (#31567247)
And? AGPL is not a non-commercial license. If Amazon wanted to provide such a service, they would certainly be permitted to. As long as they provided any changes they make to the the AGPL source code. The AGPL would not "infect" their hosting infrastructure.