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Re:What is the web revival? by scyclow on Sunday May 29, 2022 @06:40PM (#31553594)
It makes me very happy to know that all of these websites exist.

It also makes me sad to see unnecessary hostility towards crypto. I get it: most NFTs are hyper commercialized trash, and they're in direct opposition to the values outlined in this article. But there's also so much weird, non-commercialized crypto stuff out there that shares a lot of the ethos of early web tinkerers.

Re:What is the web revival? by MrAwesome on Sunday May 29, 2022 @06:58PM (#31553708)
I am not aware of any non-commercialized crypto anything (from my understanding, this is sorta by definition, but maybe I'm missing something). Do you have any examples?
Re:What is the web revival? by scyclow on Sunday May 29, 2022 @07:19PM (#31553824)
The Worm is a really fun one. The idea is that you transfer the worm NFT from wallet to wallet (it's "trying to visit every wallet on the Ethereum blockchain"), and it leaves a non-transferrable token wherever it's been. To my knowledge, it's been transferred about 750 times without anyone selling it. https://theworm.wtf/

Another cool one is minting amulets. You write a poem, and if the hash of that poem has an amulet in it (four or more consecutive 8s), then you can mint it as a token for your collection. But you can't mint the same hashed poem twice https://text.bargains/collection/

I also met someone once who gave me (and everyone he meets) an NFT from an RFID chip implanted in his hand. That was pretty whacky.

Re:What is the web revival? by mgdlbp on Sunday May 29, 2022 @10:49PM (#31555046)
(RE: The Worm) First thing I thought was, what if it gets stuck? Turns out, that's already happened; the 272nd recipient had clipboard hijacking malware that changed the address they'd copied for sending it to, so the original NFT is stuck at the malware's destination address.[0] The organizers had anticipated this and used a feature in the smart contract to remove the worm from the on-blockchain image of the original NFT, as a symbolic way of invalidating it.[1] (Is this an example of "overpowered owner"?) I couldn't find anything else about the implementation, except that it's called "yoink" and that the ambition.wtf site mentions "yoink-chain Smart Contract mechanics".

[0] https://medium.com/ambition-wtf/technical-post-how-we-breach...

[1] https://medium.com/ambition-wtf/the-worm-meets-its-first-cha...

Strangely, the original NFT,[2] linked from another Medium post, now contains the worm again. But the rest of the image also differs from the screenshots in the post, so perhaps they added the worm back after starting the next iteration[3] as an acknowledgement that the original is stuck for good.

Also, I get that it's an art thing, but what is it with the...weird (IMO)...tone? I feel like I also see it elsewhere in NFT-related writing. Reminds me of lesswrong for some reason.

[2] https://opensea.io/assets/ethereum/0xacd3cf818efe8ddce84c585...

[3] https://medium.com/ambition-wtf/the-worm-f-a-q-8f91ea386028#...

Re:What is the web revival? by MrAwesome on Sunday May 29, 2022 @07:51PM (#31554040)
Pardon my ignorance here, but do you need to pay gas fees or buy tokens to transfer/mint?
Re:What is the web revival? by scyclow on Sunday May 29, 2022 @07:55PM (#31554059)
You do. Although, the guy with the chip in his hand paid the gas for that transaction.
Re:What is the web revival? by hypertele-Xii on Sunday May 29, 2022 @10:36PM (#31554984)
> I also met someone once who gave me (and everyone he meets) an NFT from an RFID chip implanted in his hand. That was pretty whacky.

What is the function of this?

Re:What is the web revival? by scyclow on Sunday May 29, 2022 @10:40PM (#31555009)
Art
Re:What is the web revival? by glerk on Monday May 30, 2022 @02:32AM (#31556026)
> I am not aware of any non-commercialized crypto anything

Say I am an amateur content creator and I set up a donations page for my fans. I have the choice between:

- Setting up PayPal/Stripe/etc. who take a percentage cut, sell my data, can freeze my funds at any time or delete my account if they don't like my content

- Putting up the address of a crypto wallet

Which one should I choose?

Re:What is the web revival? by astoor on Monday May 30, 2022 @05:06AM (#31556967)
The crypto ethos is antithetical to that of non-commercial content creators - putting a crypto wallet address on a website is like putting a big banner saying "I'm helping legitimise an environment destroying pyramid scheme to enrich myself, and I'm probably into lots of other shady stuff too", which might be fine for venture capitalists and their like, but not non-commercial content creators. Putting a donation link to something like ko-fi.com on the other hand is a better look for that sort of site.
Re:What is the web revival? by glerk on Monday May 30, 2022 @05:57AM (#31557246)
> The crypto ethos is antithetical to that of non-commercial content creators - putting a crypto wallet address on a website is like [...]

Yeah, so no true non-commercial content creator would use evil crypto. By the snark, I can tell you are as invested in hating crypto as some of us are invested in building it. What is your motivation?

Re:What is the web revival? by tjstebbing on Monday May 30, 2022 @03:56AM (#31556528)
This is a great use of crypto that (IMO) ties in directly with these movements. It's sad that 'you can join the simple web revival as long as you hate this thing we all decided to hate' seems to be a message that's pushed.
Re:What is the web revival? by WJW on Monday May 30, 2022 @05:02AM (#31556939)
The amount of fans with a credit card and/or a paypal account will dwarf the amount of fans with a crypto wallet. This means that unless you target a very specific audience where you could expect that many of them have a crypto wallet, you will likely get a larger amount of donations if you go the paypal/stripe way than if you go the crypto way.

It's not like cryptocurrencies don't take a cut (in the larger coins, transaction fees are often higher than the amount of money most fans would like to donate) or sell your data (usually not the coin devs themselves, but there are definitely companies/exchanges out there correlating transactions and selling data about them). Stripe and Paypal might not be great, but just because crypto is "not Paypal" does not make crypto automatically trustworthy.

Re:What is the web revival? by voldacar on Sunday May 29, 2022 @07:35PM (#31553915)
Monero isn't commercialized. It's just a currency that people actually use for transactions, not a product.
Re:What is the web revival? by MrAwesome on Sunday May 29, 2022 @07:49PM (#31554021)
A currency is generally intended mainly for commercial purposes, isn't it? I think the word commercialized isn't quite right for what I mean then.

So more specifically, I mean: "not for the purpose of creating or transferring monetary value, and not requiring the expenditure of money to create/send the amount of data necessary to host a simple plaintext/html page"

Re:What is the web revival? by voldacar on Monday May 30, 2022 @04:58PM (#31563569)
I was assuming you meant things like NFTs or smart contracts, i.e. commercial products that live on a blockchain
Re:What is the web revival? by giantrobot on Sunday May 29, 2022 @06:50PM (#31553662)
> But there's also so much weird, non-commercialized crypto stuff out there that shares a lot of the ethos of early web tinkerers.

Bullshit. Without miners there's no "crypto" and without payouts there's no miners. So "web3" can only exist where there's some financial incentive to run miners. Users can't spend real money to access this system so they need to convert their money to Geoffrey dollars to even access "web3" content. This is 180° from the "old web". End users needed no more investment than their computer and Internet connection. They didn't have to prop up some asshole's upline to check out the Unofficial X-Files Fan Page.

Re:What is the web revival? by scyclow on Sunday May 29, 2022 @07:08PM (#31553770)
> So "web3" can only exist where there's some financial incentive to run miners.

I can say the same about anything else on the internet. Keeping the servers running costs money

> Users can't spend real money to access this system so they need to convert their money to Geoffrey dollars to even access "web3" content.

You can actually access most web3 content without spending Geoffrey dollars, or US Dollars. If we're talking about public blockchains like Ethereum, it's all out in the open. By definition, it's a public ledger. IPFS data (which has nothing to do with crypto) is also very public.

> End users needed no more investment than their computer and Internet connection.

I guess some web3 websites require you to connect with a wallet, but downloading a browser extension doesn't seem very prohibitive.

Re:What is the web revival? by DebtDeflation on Sunday May 29, 2022 @08:44PM (#31554388)
What problem is web3 even trying to solve? As it stands today I can conduct commerce over the web, pay for access to content directly, or have free content that is advertising supported. Having to connect with a wallet and spend some specialized cryptocurrency to access a website provides what benefit? It seems like a solution chasing a problem like literally everything else crypto related.
Re:What is the web revival? by scyclow on Sunday May 29, 2022 @09:15PM (#31554558)
I think the main class of problems it solves is it lets multiple applications, which may be developed by completely different entities at different times, share data with very strong guarantees.

So in the context of the Web Revivalist movement, how do you build stateful applications? It's great when individuals host their own DIY servers, but that doesn't really give you much stability. And in aggregate, it's even more difficult to build rich, stateful ecosystems of applications. How do you handle servers going down and APIs changing? Link rot for stateless websites is a hard enough as it is.

Re:What is the web revival? by duskwuff on Sunday May 29, 2022 @09:49PM (#31554746)
> I think the main class of problems it solves is it lets multiple applications, which may be developed by completely different entities at different times, share data with very strong guarantees.

It doesn't, though. That's bullshit. Sharing data between web applications is not some sort of grand challenge that required new technology to solve.

Re:What is the web revival? by tiborsaas on Monday May 30, 2022 @03:45AM (#31556470)
Not bullshit, I've seen it happening already. One team set up http://hicetnunc.xyz/ to host niche NFT-s on the Tezos blockchain. Later they abandoned the whole project and meanwhile another team started to build a new platform on the same dataset. https://objkt.com/

This was pretty cool because all the Hic en nunc generated content over their existence is still accessible through Objkt.

Sharing data is of course possible since stone tablets, but doing it without any form of collaboration or approval is probably unique to crypto.

Re:What is the web revival? by ben_w on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @04:42AM (#31567298)
> Sharing data is of course possible since stone tablets, but doing it without any form of collaboration or approval is probably unique to crypto.

To the extent that crypto doesn’t require collaboration or approval, neither does Wikipedia. Or libraries.

Or, indeed, stone tablets — Pharaoh 𓃹𓈖𓇋𓋴 didn’t give anyone permission to go raid his tomb, and yet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unas

Re:What is the web revival? by scyclow on Sunday May 29, 2022 @10:09PM (#31554852)
I'm not trying to swindle you. I'm trying to have an intelligent conversation. You don't need to call all my points bullshit :)

It depends on the level of guarantees you want for that data. If we're communicating, and you're okay with me changing my APIs, or even changing the data itself in ways we didn't previously agree upon, then you 100% don't need a blockchain. And if you don't have a lot of entities that need to coordinate on the data, then there might be an easier solution.

Re:What is the web revival? by duskwuff on Sunday May 29, 2022 @11:40PM (#31555262)
And introducing a blockchain to the equation changes nothing about that! It doesn't magically make applications interoperate with each other, or make them consume each other's data, or force them to maintain API compatibility. At most, it provides a shared, public location for them to store data -- and even that has some very awkward limitations associated with it.

A lot of the blockchain boosterism I see online comes from a place of assuming that the blockchain represents a solution to a problem, and trying to work backwards from there. Avoid that.

Re:What is the web revival? by scyclow on Monday May 30, 2022 @12:30AM (#31555492)
Maybe we're just talking past each other, but this is the entire point of a smart contract platform. I deploy code to it, and you now have a guarantee forever on the interface of that code, as well as its implementation logic. If I'm running the same code on my server and you're hitting my API, then I can change the interface, change the logic, or mutate the data in ways not specified by that code.

So really when I say "applications" I'm referring specifically to other smart contracts.

Re:What is the web revival? by giantrobot on Monday May 30, 2022 @05:52AM (#31557230)
Smart contracts that cost money to run on a virtual machine with less power than a Raspberry Pi. In order to access a DApp someone needs to buy into some cryptocurrency, providing some early holder the ability to cash out. The DApp user also has to trust that the smart contract doesn't have a stupid bug that will drain their wallet. Oh and thanks to the low transaction rate of a blockchain that DApp might never execute or have a flash crash type spike in cost.

It's a bunch of rent seeking bullshit on top of what could just be a web API. Storage on a blockchain is stupid expensive so there's oracles everywhere pointing to off-chain resources with zero guarantee of availability.

Blockchains aren't adding any value. They're only extracting rent and adding friction.

Re:What is the web revival? by hypertele-Xii on Sunday May 29, 2022 @10:57PM (#31555086)
> Without miners there's no "crypto" and without payouts there's no miners. So "web3" can only exist where there's some financial incentive to run miners.

People have motivations besides financial incentive.

I've got a website. I'm paying for it. I make no money from it. The web exists.

A miner is just a spare computer in service of a network. Like a closet web server, or a seeder in a public torrent swarm.

Re:What is the web revival? by giantrobot on Monday May 30, 2022 @06:10AM (#31557333)
A closet web server or torrent seeder can perform its task on its own. It only requires Internet access and some electricity and it's good to go. Unless you're paying by the byte to your ISP the costs of running the server is electricity costs.

A single miner can't do anything on its own so blockchain transactions require the aggregate waste of a whole network of miners to accomplish anything.

For DApps to run the network of miners runs them. They demand payment for doing so. You can run a web server in your closet free of charge, a DApp that doesn't offer incentive to miners will never run. If you foot the bill for some DApp it'll cost you orders of magnitude more than a Raspberry Pi in your closet.

Re:What is the web revival? by civilized on Sunday May 29, 2022 @08:12PM (#31554180)
Crypto is about making sure the supply of something stays limited. Seems pretty contradictory to the spirit of free creative expression the Web Revival is going for.
Re:What is the web revival? by scyclow on Sunday May 29, 2022 @09:28PM (#31554632)
I think they solve different problems. I love independent websites, and the web is an amazing medium for serving stateless content. But I think web3 compliments it really well when you want to do something that hooks into a larger, stateful ecosystem.
Re:What is the web revival? by civilized on Sunday May 29, 2022 @09:50PM (#31554754)
I'm sure you can think of a much simpler way of doing stateful things with networked computers than crypto.
Re:What is the web revival? by scyclow on Sunday May 29, 2022 @10:02PM (#31554818)
I think it really depends on what you want to do. If you want build a comment system for your website, then web3 is totally the wrong tool for the job. If you want to write an application that coordinates data across multiple websites, and you're worried about servers going down or APIs changing, then it's a little trickier to think of a simpler way.
Re:What is the web revival? by tjstebbing on Monday May 30, 2022 @03:57AM (#31556538)
Except for instance something like Dogecoin that is the direct opposite of what you're saying?
Re:What is the web revival? by civilized on Monday May 30, 2022 @10:42AM (#31559506)
The supply of dogecoins is increasing but still strictly limited at any given time. They're not like artwork that can be copied and shared by anyone.
Re:What is the web revival? by jancsika on Sunday May 29, 2022 @08:59PM (#31554473)
Most importantly-- it shares the foundational feature of having such a small publishing cost that it creates a paradigm shift in how we are able to self-organize.

That's one thing that bothered and confused the cranks with burgeoning Wikipedia. Why does the Pokemon article have a longer page than one on the Vietnam War? The priorities are out of wack, they thought, without realizing that the lack of scarcity in a web page (well, technically a scroll) and low friction of revisions ends up changing the process of editing an encyclopedia for length.

It's similar for Bitcoin. Cranks on HN always want to to downplay it's 3-orders-of-magnitude superior transaction speed to Visa/Mastercard by pointing out the much smaller value being transacted. One million microtransactions for a grand total of $1000, they say, without realizing that it's the types of transactions these (often automated) payments support which simply aren't possible using the old payment paradigm.

Without the scale and speed of microtransactions Bitcoin makes possible, you don't just end up with a less effective National Association of Independent Investigative Units. Games in Geocities 2 don't just get a little bit laggy. FOSSmobiles don't just take a little longer to update their FOSStertainment panels. You simply end up with a world where none of that stuff exists.

Oh wait I forgot Bitcoin doesn't work like that. Still, we've got Sci-hub donations and that one ransomware that apparently donates to charities. So not so different, really.

Re:What is the web revival? by Fargoan on Sunday May 29, 2022 @09:08PM (#31554515)
You can do that with Lightning Network
Re:What is the web revival? by meowkit on Sunday May 29, 2022 @06:48PM (#31553648)
Reading the yesterweb criticism page of crypto/web3 that is linked to by the OP makes me think this movement is not going to gain much momentum. The criticism is somewhat accurate, but extremely shallow and makes no attempt to steel man potential benefits.

Not that I expect this to land well with the HN crowd, but web3/crypto has the tyrannical effects of capitalism/growth on its side as a force for the “future of the web”. Going up against that with the non-profit model seems… quaint.

Re:What is the web revival? by kelseyfrog on Sunday May 29, 2022 @06:57PM (#31553697)
Yesterweb asks a simple question, "Can't we have one thing, one measly crumb-of-a-thing, not tainted by capitalism?" And the resounding response is "NO."
Re:What is the web revival? by nonrandomstring on Monday May 30, 2022 @03:58AM (#31556542)
> Yesterweb asks a simple question, "Can't we have one thing, one measly crumb-of-a-thing, not tainted by capitalism?" And the resounding response is "NO."

The answer is "Yes, but at a cost". One must subsidise the parasitic nature of digital capitalism.

Many of the comments here are about the style or mechanisms of the web, but don't talk much about the values - which are sharing. The object is to give some value to the world, sharing a little of the creation you do.

I've set up websites with HOWTO essays, code examples, mp3 files of sound effects I collected, interesting images etc. In the early days it was popular and well regarded amongst a music coding community, but within 10 years it was inoperable. Bots crawling all over it constantly sucked the life out of the server, and literally tens of thousands of parasitic links from commercial entities, spamdexers and SEO trash attached themselves. My site was like a ship dragged down by barnacles and weeds.

When I shut down the site I got angry emails from entitled assholes who had embedded sound effects in their applications by linking to my site as if it were an infinite free resource.

This story has been told a million times by people who set up websites for fun in the 90s and 00s, and pulled them down after realising the cost (often in time spent reading logs, defending, blocking, banning, rate-limiting etc)

What is to be done? In the digital world capitalism does not create value but extracts or appropriates it from creators. To be a digital creator means paying a constant tax to support those who want to make money from you.

While cryptocurrency type Web3.0 seems to offer a solution it only fights fire with fire, wrapping the web in a framework of mutual extraction and appropriation. Ultimately I think that only plays into the hands of the extractors who will use it to find ever more effective ways to thrive as parasites.

Re:What is the web revival? by scyclow on Sunday May 29, 2022 @07:22PM (#31553847)
I'm looking forward to the NFT bear market where Ethereum moves to Proof of Stake, and people realize that unique digital assets are fun to create, collect, and trade without having to make money on them.
Re:What is the web revival? by hypertele-Xii on Sunday May 29, 2022 @10:50PM (#31555056)
> unique digital assets are fun to create, collect, and trade without having to make money on them.

There's no such thing as a "unique digital asset". Networked computers are good at sharing copies. Any developments against this nature are manufactured, artificial scarcity, for the gains of the controlling party, at the expense of everyone else; and probably in the name of security.

If you like them so much I can roll a die and tell only you which number I got, but that wouldn't affect the world in any way unless we're gambling, nor make it any less "unique" than crypto - it's just more bits/dice.

Re:What is the web revival? by Fargoan on Sunday May 29, 2022 @09:12PM (#31554534)
We already do that on Tezos