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Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by bjt2n3904 on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @10:18PM (#31513498)
What if cars were legislated like guns?

Mufflers would be illegal. If you are driving between states, you need to check to see if your driver's license is accepted by each state you go through -- and some counties. Adjustable car seats are illegal. Automatic transmissions are illegal. Building your own car would be illegal. If your truck is too short, it's a felony. Unless you call your truck a car, and never put anything in the bed. If you have a criminal record for drug use, you cannot drive a car, or even ride a bus. Some states will only let you put 5 gallons of gas in your tank, claiming that large gas tanks are a risk for ramming attacks. California will only let you purchase cars they say are safe--and haven't updated the roster for years. Politicians keep insisting that your tires should be laser etched with microscopic serial numbers so you can track down criminals by the tire marks left behind, and that your car should have a kill switch controlled by the government. Movies like Fast and the Furious get blamed for causing drunk driving. If you buy a Tesla, people constantly demand that you explain why you NEED to own it, and that everyone should be perfectly fine with a Vespa scooter. Whenever a drunk driver hits someone, society blames you personally, and says that you just want your dumb hobbies and don't care about children.

Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by akomtu on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @11:52PM (#31514284)
That's not even all the rules. Car keys must be shorter than one inch to prevent masd stabbing. Purchasing gas needs a license, 3 hour wait time to deter impulsive arsonists, and suspicious looks when you buy too much gas (more than 10 gallons) per day. Gas purchases are limited to 50 gallons per month per person. Selling gas, oil or engine parts to strangers is a felony. Windshields are banned, and tinted windshields is a crime with a minimum of 10 years in prison punishment, because windhields let criminals conceal their activity. Black "assault style" trucks are banned. Oil isn't illegal, but its use is frowned upon and it can be bought only from the right people on the outskirts of the state. Every accident involving more than 4 cars makes the media start whining about aboloshing all "machines of death", politicians arrange an urgent consilium and propose a bill to ban 4-wheeled assault-style machines, but usually fail to get enough votes. When the do, the law remains in force, sort of, until some federal judge returns from a long vacation, finds out what this kindergarten did and overturns the law (and promptly departs to another multi-year vacation).
Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by javajosh on Thursday May 26, 2022 @12:56AM (#31514759)
>What if cars were legislated like guns?

What the GP meant, clearly, was "what if gun users were regulated like car users", e.g. requiring training and a license. IMHO this fits the "part of a well-regulated militia" clause that people always ignore. If I had to guess, this clause was there specifically to prevent unstable people from getting firearms, since your fellow militia members are probably not going to want you if you seem unstable. Social proof is not a bad heuristic, even if it does have obvious failure modes.

Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by bjt2n3904 on Thursday May 26, 2022 @05:54AM (#31516477)
Yes. And anyone who makes such a statement clearly doesn't have a grasp on the issue -- either of what a civil right is, or how guns and cars are regulated.

If guns were regulated like cars, there would be no background check to buy a gun. A felony would not disqualify you from gun ownership. Schools would teach marksmanship starting at age 15, and you could get a license to carry at sixteen, recognized by all states. Suppressors wouldn't just be legal, they'd be mandatory. No one would try to sue Smith and Wesson for shooting sprees, just like nobody tried to sue Ford for the Waekusha ramming attack. Etc, etc, etc.

But as to what the first response said, ultimately then, gun ownership would be a privilege, not a right. You don't license rights.

Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by javajosh on Thursday May 26, 2022 @01:54PM (#31521422)
>A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The right, as written, includes the phrase "A well regulated Militia". This is the only right that includes the word "regulated". Personally, I would be in favor of a highly distributed form of regulation, similar to the "jury of your peers" system: to own a gun, you must join a militia, and it's up to that militia to determine if you're the type of person to randomly murder children or not. (This is similar to the idea I proposed after 9/11 that passengers be required to socially mingle with each other, and then (privately) share concerns with the airline or TSA. That is, the people with the most to lose are the best defense against these kinds of threats).

Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by bjt2n3904 on Thursday May 26, 2022 @03:00PM (#31522143)
Ok -- this is a common statement. I suspect you are arguing in good faith, but ignorant of DC v Heller, and don't understand the prefatory clause debate.

> ... the right of THE PEOPLE to keep and bear arms...

Clearly, this is a right that belongs to the people, regardless of militia membership. Please read DC v Heller.

Even grammatically, "well regulated" refers to function, not rules. A mechanical watch that keeps time is "well regulated".

Please understand that these points are extremely well settled, and that bringing them up is like bringing up "violent video games".

Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by javajosh on Thursday May 26, 2022 @05:36PM (#31523648)
>Please understand that these points are extremely well settled

You mean like Roe v Wade and Casey? I don't buy this argument.

>Clearly, this is a right that belongs to the people, regardless of militia membership.

That's not clear to me. Not at all. Why mention militias at all? What is a poorly regulated militia?

>Please read DC v Heller.

Okay.

Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by javajosh on Thursday May 26, 2022 @05:47PM (#31523732)
DC v Heller was decided in 2008, so "extremely well settled" is false. There was significant dissent leading up to that decision, including Circuit Judge Henderson who wrote:

>Under United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. at 178, the Second Amendment's declaration and guarantee that "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" relates to the Militia of the States only.

Also of interest are the amicus briefs. At the time Texas Attorney General but now Governor Greg Abbott, submitted a brief authored by Abbott's solicitor general, Ted Cruz, advising that the case be affirmed. I wonder if they have any second thoughts now, and if they did, if they would admit it?

Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by wyager on Thursday May 26, 2022 @08:09AM (#31517329)
> what if gun users were regulated like car users

You mean "having no legal restrictions whatsoever on private property"?

> requiring training and a license

Most states do require this on public property, same as a car.

Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by coinbasetwwa on Thursday May 26, 2022 @12:19AM (#31514495)
I needed this, thanks man.
Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by temp8964 on Thursday May 26, 2022 @12:01AM (#31514351)
But you need multiple steps including the driver’s test to get a driver’s license, then you can drive. In this recent shooting, it’s obvious the shooter got his guns way too easily. I am pro-gun but I think you should be required to have a gun license first before you can buy a gun. And a mental health test and safety test should be passed to get the license.
Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by josephcsible on Thursday May 26, 2022 @12:14AM (#31514448)
Basically anyone with a pulse can get a driver's license, it's almost impossible to lose one permanently, and even people caught driving without one often only get a slap on the wrist.
Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by temp8964 on Thursday May 26, 2022 @12:18AM (#31514484)
I don’t think you can get a driver’s license in one step shop. It usually requires you bring documents and wait in long lines and schedule a test and take the test on a different day and go back wait in long lines. There’s no way you can get a driver’s license with a pulse.
Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by Glyptodon on Thursday May 26, 2022 @12:29AM (#31514565)
You don't actually need a driver's license to buy a motor vehicle I don't think.
Re:Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of Ameri... by YATA2 on Thursday May 26, 2022 @12:10AM (#31514415)
This is hilariously perfect. This should be posted everywhere.