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Re:Open Letter to Noam Chomsky (and Other Intellectuals) on ... by jmyeet on Saturday May 21, 2022 @09:50AM (#31457905)
This is pretty terrible. Chomsky is way more right than these guys. Some notes:

1. Crimea is a settled issue. You may not like it and the referendum was obviously flawed by repeated Western polls since 2014 have shown annexation by Russia to be widely popular (~70% support). So much of this post talks about agency. What about Crimean agency?

2. While Russia is the bad guy here without doubt, you can't gloss over Ukraine's failings here. Stop with the binary thinking here that one or the other is wrong or that criticizing Ukrainian actions is victim-blaming. Prime example: cutting off the water to Crimea following 2014 by any objective standard is a human rights violation;

3. Ukraine has been a pawn for US foreign policy. It's wild to pretend otherwise. For the US military-industrial complex the current situation is basically ideal. Russia is mired in a war they cannot win, Russia has been isolated from the international community, Europe is set to become less dependent on Russian energy exports, NATO is strengthened and the US gets to sell lots of weapons to Ukraine.

4. The idea that Russia doesn't want a buffer to NATO is laughable and hypocritical. It ignores 200 years of the Monroe Doctrine where the US will not accept any foreign military presence in the Western hemisphere (it's self-declared sphere of influence). This was practically tested when the US almost started World War Three over a Soviet presence in Cuba. So why is that OK for the US but not Russia?

5. These authors make the same mistakes most US wonks do: they view the US as benign. Even if you agree with that you should at least accept that not everyone else does and there's plenty of evidence it isn't. I mean NATO's raison d'etre was to destroy the USSR. The USSR is gone so now it's by default the destroy Russia alliance.

6. As for the diplomatic solution, there ultimately will be one. There always is. Even unconditional surrender is a diplomatic end. Russia is a nuclear power. The pre-WW2 standards of defeating hegemonic powers just don't apply any more. There's a whole straw man bit in this about how the only alternative is unconditional surrender. Nobody is saying that.

I think the only thing I agree with is the justification for the invasion (most notably "denazification") is completely ridiculous. This is propaganda and it's what imperial powers do. It's really no different to the US spreading democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Re:Open Letter to Noam Chomsky (and Other Intellectuals) on ... by EB-Barrington on Saturday May 21, 2022 @09:59AM (#31457991)
Referendum may happen soon in Kherson, and other Ukrainian cities.

Would it be valid?

Theres a reason the Crimea "referendum" is not accepted, and the issue is far from settled.

Re:Open Letter to Noam Chomsky (and Other Intellectuals) on ... by ivan_gammel on Saturday May 21, 2022 @02:11PM (#31460334)
It is settled in a sense, that there's no solution besides destroying Russia as a state that would result in return of Crimea to Ukraine. As OP said, whether we recognize Crimean referendum or not, is irrelevant, so bringing Kherson into conversation does not make much sense. Polls in territories occupied after 24.02 would not show the same level of support of the referendum results, as it happened in Crimea.
Re:Open Letter to Noam Chomsky (and Other Intellectuals) on ... by psorcerer on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @06:10PM (#31511333)
And what's the problem with destroying Russia? Hitler Germany was destroyed for pretty much the same. Or should US wait for another Holocaust again?
Re:Open Letter to Noam Chomsky (and Other Intellectuals) on ... by coward-guy on Friday May 27, 2022 @05:06PM (#31534901)
Referendum will not happen due to the low support of Russia in Kherson. The situation is not the same as it was in Crimea in 2014.
Re:Open Letter to Noam Chomsky (and Other Intellectuals) on ... by keewee7 on Thursday May 26, 2022 @04:40AM (#31516071)
>You may not like it and the referendum was obviously flawed by repeated Western polls since 2014 have shown annexation by Russia to be widely popular (~70% support). So much of this post talks about agency. What about Crimean agency?

This is a complete lie. Also the USSR settled Crimea with many Russians to change its demographics.

Re:Open Letter to Noam Chomsky (and Other Intellectuals) on ... by dantyti on Saturday May 21, 2022 @10:59AM (#31458468)
1. So: force natives out, settle the land with military officers and other not-collonists-only-in-name, fix some polls and call it Crimean agency.

Tell me: in 1941, did the Baltic States enter the Soviet Union willingly (via democratic votes of coincidentally brand new Soviet-aligned governments) or did it happen due to Soviet military coercion, threats and ultimatums? Was it a settled issue in 1945-1953[1]? In 1989[2]? How about now? Same question about Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Poland, and Romania.

2. Finding it really hard not to see this as victim blaming. Do you believe cutting off the water supply to Crimea was what prompted a military invasion that targeted Kiyv, among other targets? Should Ukraine have absorbed the infrastructure costs, maintenance, etc. to keep the water supply operational for a, your words 'settled issue'? Since it would then be an international matter, the water supply question would be governed by treaties, yes? Again, at the very least, there are costs involved in keeping the water flowing. Unless you feel this is a situation where Russia can take what ever it wants and get paid for it. A sort of Bullying as a Service, if you will.

3. First of all: what if Russia's the pawn? Secondly: did the US organize the 2003 Tuzla Island incident, where Russia tried to annex Ukraine's island in the Kerch strait? Might this be a pattern that's not solely the interest of the US military-industrial complex?

4. Whataboutism. Or, as the Soviets used to say: "Oh yeah? And you're lynching negroes in the US!".[3]

5. Since you are equivocating the Soviet Union and Russia, the US is objectively more benign. To paraphrase your point: you are making the same mistake that most US "anti-imperialists" make by seeing it as the most active and subversive force in human history. In terms of repressiveness and meddling in foreign countries (coups, revolutions), Russian and Soviet history is hard to beat. Bucha in 2022 is what my great grandparents and grandparents had to live through when the Soviets occupied our country. The equivocation is justified.

6. It takes two to tango, but it's hard to listen to the crowd shouting about how you should start dancing when the other side has just left the floor and stabbed your mother in plain sight of everyone.

Fascinating how you agreed that the Russian narrative is completely ridiculous and then ended with another whataboutism about the US.

1- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Soviet_partisans#During_S... 2- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Way 3- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes

Re:Open Letter to Noam Chomsky (and Other Intellectuals) on ... by ivan_gammel on Saturday May 21, 2022 @05:41PM (#31462154)
I wonder if you really understand what „natives“ mean in the context of Crimea. E.g. Eastern Slavs were present there long before conquest by Ottoman Turks, so technically Crimean Tatars can be called colonizers, which wiped or assimilated the original population of the peninsula. Even if we start calling them natives, the sequence that you described is a nonsense. Crimea became part of Ukraine only after Tatars were resettled by Stalin, so this could not be part of some plan of Russia to take it from Ukraine. It was already Russian, with Russian population bigger than Ukrainian.
Re:Open Letter to Noam Chomsky (and Other Intellectuals) on ... by psorcerer on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @06:13PM (#31511362)
Give Texas and California to Mexico then. Why not? Really, same reasoning can be applied.