News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Bluetooth relay attacks allow Tesla Model 3 / Y to be unl... by yc-kraln on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @07:17AM (#31408776)
> Every contactless unlock technique is vulnerable to relay attacks. > - No amount of encryption prevents relay attacks.

This isn't true, and I have the patent(s) to show it.

I developed (along with some truly talented security professionals and cryptographers) the active RFID security system for KIWI, a residential access control system here in Germany. One of the requirements, aside from not keeping a central log of access, was that the system should not work if you were further than 10 meters from the door you were trying to open. Things like measuring signal strength, etc. were not an option, as you might imagine repeaters render that moot.

Ultimately, it comes down to fairly tight timings, the speed of light and the rules of physics, but we could restrict things such that the cryptographic handshake would fail if you were more than about 30 meters away, corresponding to a timing window of about 0.0000001 seconds.

We offered to license the technology to car companies, but they weren't interested.

Re:Bluetooth relay attacks allow Tesla Model 3 / Y to be unl... by lloeki on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @07:49AM (#31409074)
> I have the patent(s) to show it.

> I developed

> Ultimately, it comes down to fairly tight timings, the speed of light and the rules of physics, but we could restrict things such that the cryptographic handshake would fail if you were more than about 30 meters away, corresponding to a timing window of about 0.0000001 seconds.

Prior art! ;)

https://web.mit.edu/jemorris/humor/500-miles

Re:Bluetooth relay attacks allow Tesla Model 3 / Y to be unl... by yc-kraln on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @08:46AM (#31409718)
(Yes, I realize your comment was tongue-in-cheek)

There are actually a lot of patented ways to prevent relay attacks, mine is only one of them. And most of them are patented by NXP :)

Ultimately, this is a failure of prioritization on behalf of the car companies, or a sacrifice of security for usability, or both.

Re:Bluetooth relay attacks allow Tesla Model 3 / Y to be unl... by excuses_ on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @08:05AM (#31409237)
I was trying to learn more about the problem as two of my colleagues were victims of relay attacks, allegedly. Stolen cars were Mazda and Kia. I found claims that only Jaguars and Land Rovers have been resistant to that kind of attack thanks to precise time measurement - similar solution to your description.

I don't have any links and found only [1] this one quickly.

[1] https://teamtalk.jaguarlandrover.com/news/jaguar-land-rover-...

Re:Bluetooth relay attacks allow Tesla Model 3 / Y to be unl... by moduspol on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @08:01AM (#31409185)
IIRC this is how the Apple Watch's feature that unlocks your Mac works. It's not vulnerable to repeaters and only works within ~3 feet of the watch and the Mac.
Re:Bluetooth relay attacks allow Tesla Model 3 / Y to be unl... by eric_h on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @12:42PM (#31413237)
I’ve found the range for unlocking your phone with the watch is even tighter. When I’m on the subway it’s less than six inches, presumably because of local radio noise.
Re:Bluetooth relay attacks allow Tesla Model 3 / Y to be unl... by moduspol on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @01:14PM (#31413661)
Yep. The reference I saw actually says ~3 meters, but even in seemingly ideal conditions, I don't see it reliably work except within probably just one.
Re:Bluetooth relay attacks allow Tesla Model 3 / Y to be unl... by oblio on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @07:20AM (#31408800)
> We offered to license the technology to car companies, but they weren't interested.

Well, I'm sorry for your tech, but you're kind of making OP's point:

> Yes, 99.9% of consumers really like keyless entry and don't care too much about the potential of theft. For most, that is what insurance is for.

Re:Bluetooth relay attacks allow Tesla Model 3 / Y to be unl... by sodality2 on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @09:27AM (#31410243)
It refutes the part where they said: "No, we can't solve this"
Re:Bluetooth relay attacks allow Tesla Model 3 / Y to be unl... by rekoil on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @09:24AM (#31410192)
I think the point is we can have both, but it requires more expensive hardware to be able to do the handshake fast enough that it doesn't cause accidental failures and ultimately irritation for the user.
Re:Bluetooth relay attacks allow Tesla Model 3 / Y to be unl... by gentleman11 on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @09:57AM (#31410721)
Try selling it to insurance companies? Manufacturers who refuse to use it could have their drivers paying higher insurance rates
Re:Bluetooth relay attacks allow Tesla Model 3 / Y to be unl... by jart on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @07:43AM (#31409014)
I agreed with the GP but you certainly made them sound like a bag of hot air. What a pleasant reminder that security can be bona fide engineering. It's too bad we live in a world that doesn't always want problems solved.
Re:Bluetooth relay attacks allow Tesla Model 3 / Y to be unl... by pbronez on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @07:57AM (#31409153)
Where can I learn more about this technology and explore licensing opportunities?
Re:Bluetooth relay attacks allow Tesla Model 3 / Y to be unl... by yc-kraln on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @08:44AM (#31409697)
I am no longer involved in the company. Here is one of the related patents: DE102012104955A1; send me a message/email and I could potentially make a connection.
Re:Bluetooth relay attacks allow Tesla Model 3 / Y to be unl... by tlb on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @10:03AM (#31410824)
How hard is it to integrate the key into phones? If it uses a separate UWB radio it must add some cost and power drain.