Also, the overconsumption of protein in the Western diet is generally ignored and not healthful in the way marketing would like you to think [2].
[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5444962/ [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22043881/ [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4045293/
Every health agency recommmends milk and dairy as one element of a balanced diet. See for example the recommendation by NHS Scotland, mentioned in the article and illustrated here:
https://www.nhsinform.scot/healthy-living/preventing-falls/k...
> Yet we know milk consumed today has adverse effects on the body, one being iron anemia at a young age. I personally experienced this in the 80s and, there was unfortunately no scrutiny around dairy at the time.
Just so we're clear, I stated "milk" in this sentence and I didn't state it was at all ages - I stated "at a young age". Just because this particular research was about toddlers doesn't negate the fact that the issue exists, and I dealt with it beyond that timeframe.
> Every health agency recommmends milk and dairy as one element of a balanced diet.
This is untrue - not every health agency does. Canada does not [0] - there are likely others. Because they were not lobbied by the dairy industry and as such it isn't needed or required for humans to live healthy lives [1]. Considering we are the only mammal to drink the milk of another species it's highly unlikely we need it. Milk is for the direct offspring of that mammal and that particular period of their growth.
[0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46964549 [1 - PDF] https://switch4good.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Harvard-M...
Incidentally, we are, actually, the only animal who drinks the juice of lemons. Maybe we should stop drinking lemon juice, also... in case all the other animals think we're weird and don't invite us to parties, I guess?
Or we can just eat and drink foods that are nourishing? Like milk, for example. Milk is the main source of calcium in our diet.
> Just because this particular research was about toddlers doesn't negate the fact that the issue exists, and I dealt with it beyond that timeframe.
You had some "issue" that you concluded was caused by milk, so milk is bad for everyone?
> This is untrue - not every health agency does. Canada does not [0]
Oh but it does. Here's Canada's food guide:
https://food-guide.canada.ca/en/
You can see in the picture, on the upper right quadrant, a small pot of a creamy white substance which is most likely yogurt.
This page further in the food-guide-canada.ca website recommends it more explicitly:
https://food-guide.canada.ca/en/healthy-eating-recommendatio...
Protein foods are good for you
You don’t need to eat large amounts of protein foods
to meet your nutritional needs. Try to eat protein
foods such as:
(...)
lower fat dairy products
milk
yogurt
lower sodium cheeses
The BBC article is nothing but clickbait and the Canada Food Guide official who spoke to it is only posturing about fighting the evil dairy industry.
We’ve been drinking bovine milk for about 10,000 years and heavily ingesting soy in the west for about 100 years (with a sharp uptick over the 50 years[1], the same time that testosterone is rapidly declining in men[2])
I would prefer more research for the new thing than the old thing, for the simple fact that we’ve been doing the old thing so long that it’s either safe or we’ve already bore the consequences.
To be fully clear: I’m not saying that this is a correlation; testosterone decline is suspected to be caused by BPA plastics: but what I’m saying is that given it has been linked with hormone abnormalities, I would be more skeptical of recommending it as a central component of a growing bodies diet.
[0]: https://helloclue.com/articles/culture/does-eating-soy-affec...
[1]: https://ourworldindata.org/soy
[2]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/2017/10/02/youre-not-t...
p.s: sorry for the formatting/grammar, I’m writing this on a phone.
As for
> We’ve been drinking bovine milk for about 10,000 years and heavily ingesting soy in the west for about 100 years (with a sharp uptick over the 50 years[1], the same time that testosterone is rapidly declining in men[2])
I think in countries like China and Japan those timelines are almost reversed.
The link literally says there's a link (as in, we need to investigate, there is some linkage here we don't understand) and it's understudied.
it goes on to say:
>> Research suggests that eating soy products might decrease FSH and LH in people who are premenopausal, which may impact fertility. And it might increase estrogen in people who are menopausal, leading to a reduction in menopausal symptoms. [..] It’s not yet understood how these changes could impact people who menstruate.
Obviously this is affecting hormones
>> Animal studies suggest there may be slight hormonal and reproductive changes in male mice when they are exposed to soy consistently throughout their entire lifetimes
I'm arguing that we shouldn't jump on something until it's understood.
> I think in countries like China and Asia those timelines are almost reversed.
Yes, and China and Asia tends to be lactose intolerant, so what exactly is your point here?
That an Asian persons body has had the time to adapt to Soy does not mean it's safe for westerners immediately, it could be, but it equally could not be.
> That an Asian persons body has had the time to adapt to Soy does not mean it's safe for westerners immediately, it could be, but it equally could not be.
I'm sorry, what?
I do not keep up with the research, so I must have missed the papers which proved that Asian people's bodies process phytoestrogens - which, I might add, usually act as estrogen antagonists if they even do anything - in a radically different way than westerners.
“western people drank dairy for 10,000 years and soy for 50”
To which someone adds: “Asian people at soy for 10,000 years and milk for 100”
So my Response:
“Asian people seem to be physiologically intolerant to milk, is it possible that Asian people are more tolerant to soy than western people in the same way that the inverse is true?”
You:
“MILK BAD SOY GOOD WHERE PROOF”
Not trolling, really, But I feel like we’re following different interpretations of this thread.
> You:
> “MILK BAD SOY GOOD WHERE PROOF”
While I'm sure that your skill at logical leaps must be impressive, and bring you a lot of joy, I would caution against relying on it overmuch: you just took a series of logical tumble-off-a-cliff.
The very premise - "beware of soy, for it might be to blame for low T in the west!" - is nonsensical, like using old papers loaded with "might" and "we don't understand things yet" to assert the existence of a strong and obvious link between the two.
"Western people have only been drinking soy for 50 years" is also an incredibly weak argument, and jumping from that to "maybe Asian people just tolerate soy more" is - absent even minimal research that would at least suggest the possible existence of such a phenomena - just a way to castle up, and to refuse admitting that the argument(s) that led to this were flawed.
I’m not saying soy is bad, I’m saying I have an anecdote in my life very recently that indicates it can mess with hormones of adults and that the science doesnt seem to be very conclusive yet.
That this is controversial is really scary; people really want soy to be without fault, and that’s fine, but I want to understand the health impact before we give it to developing humans. I’m not against soy as a premise, I even eat a serious amount of soy in my own diet.
However we understand the impact of dairy (not saying it’s better, but at least understand, which was my only positive point about dairy)
Canada redid their food guide without the aid of lobbying. What didn't make the cut was meats and dairy [0]. The entire revamp of their national food guide was rooted in evidence based science. Humans don't need dairy milk, soy/oat/almond milks. Drink more water.
I’m arguing against soy. And I’m not even arguing against soy, I’m arguing against taking soy at face value until we understand it better.
My girlfriend used to drink vegan protein powder every day and would get extremely sore breasts and much more severe cramps than she otherwise would during her time of the month.
After reading about soy and hormones she began cutting it out (using milk based protein powder instead) and she went back to normal, relatively quickly mind you.
Playing with the hormones of people in development is a bad idea, until we know more I wouldn’t recommend making soy a staple of a young adult diet.