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Re:I/O 2022 by SemanticStrengh on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @03:46PM (#31344822)
So much hypocrisy going on. If fighting racism was the goal Unicode should not have added skin colored emojis. This is the dumbest move ever.
Re:I/O 2022 by three_seagrass on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @04:58PM (#31345690)
Excluding skin color and gender is being blind to prejudice, not fighting it.
Re:I/O 2022 by jl6 on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @05:55PM (#31346379)
It’s interesting that the previous “neutral” yellow emojis are widely viewed as white:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2105.05887.pdf

My explanation is that The Simpsons trained us to view yellow cartoon characters as white.

Re:I/O 2022 by Wingman4l7 on Thursday May 12, 2022 @03:40PM (#31359264)
Considering that the Indian immigrant proprietor of the convenience store in the show is actually brown, I'm confident that the vast majority of people considered the yellow-colored Simpsons to be a white family.
Re:I/O 2022 by reaperducer on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @05:32PM (#31346094)
Excluding skin color and gender is being blind to prejudice, not fighting it.

It's largely a generational thing.

The new generations (Millennial, Z) were taught that "celebrate diversity" is the goal. Which means to highlight all the different races, creeds, colors, etc...

Previous generations (X, Boomers) were taught that being "color blind" was the ideal. Which means to treat every person the same, and disregard their race, creed, colors, etc...

Both groups are using the same language for the goal: To end racism. But the ways they were trained to do so are the exact opposite of each other.

Re:I/O 2022 by three_seagrass on Thursday May 12, 2022 @01:37PM (#31357365)
Motivation doesn't matter when the impact is different, even if motivation is the same.

Being blind to race means being blind to acts of racism. It discredits the reality of those who experience race- or gender-based discrimination because the systemic blindness won't acknowledge the differences even exist.

Prejudice still happens even if the aggressors have good motivations or think they're "good" people.

Re:I/O 2022 by reaperducer on Friday May 13, 2022 @10:06AM (#31367796)
Being blind to race means being blind to acts of racism.

No, it doesn't. That's a lovely slogan, but nothing more. People have the capacity to both treat everyone equally, and also notice when some people have not, currently or historically, been treated equally.

Prejudice still happens even if the aggressors have good motivations or think they're "good" people.

Mirrors are very useful tools.

Re:I/O 2022 by twofornone on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @05:15PM (#31345881)
This attitude promotes prejudice, merely redirecting it to whatever demographic is convenient to paint as "dominant", it will never solve the problem because it explicitly prescribes different treatment based on ethnicity/gender.

Its an emotionally appealing but logically nonsensical justification for bigotry. And particularly appealing to people who are more interested in power than actual equality.

Re:I/O 2022 by three_seagrass on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @05:24PM (#31345992)
Good thing then being inclusive involves all races and genders then, including the dominant one.

It would be pretty terrible if a historically "dominant" demographic felt persecuted because of equal options with emoji colors.

Re:I/O 2022 by twofornone on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @05:50PM (#31346319)
This common argument is disingenuous. You hide behind the term "inclusive" as though everyone is treated equally but simultaneously believe that

>Excluding skin color and gender is being blind to prejudice, not fighting it.

Which implies that historic and current prejudice must be corrected with more prejudice. Which is inconsistent with inclusiveness and equality. And we've all seen how this works in practice - certain races and one gender in particular are expected to prejudge other participants and cede their vaguely defined, unilaterally assigned and assumed privilege to create concrete prejudiced privilege for others in the "inclusive" group. And given that personal circumstances are irrelevant, this the definition of prejudice. While you may refuse to acknowledge this explicitly, logically your approach to solving racism is more racism. Which leads me to conclude that at least the loudest among the D&I camp are only using claims of equality as a thin disguise for powermongering.

>It would be pretty terrible if a historically "dominant" demographic felt persecuted because of equal options with emoji colors.

And here, ironically, you are proving my point. To correct historic injustice we are obligated to immediately dismiss any grievances from white people, bonus for snark and sarcasm. When minorities complain, all claims are immediately valid, but if whites (and sometimes Asians, when politically expedient) raise legitimate concerns, they're just being fragile. That's prejudice, my friend. And the degree to which it has become casually acceptable in increasingly larger circles is concerning.

By the way, I don't think anyone is concerned over the expanded color pallet itself, its the insistence that injecting divisive racialism into a race agnostic communication tool is the solution to prejudice. Even assuming that minorities are offended by a single yellow option is racist, much in the same way that latino people don't actually care for the similarly misguided "latinx" designation.

Re:I/O 2022 by three_seagrass on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @07:50PM (#31347506)
Equality feels like persecution to those hold all the privileges.

I'm not sure why having different colored emojis has triggered an essay to redefine inclusivity as persecution for some hypothetical "dominant" demographic, but you are proving my point.

By using weak words to avoiding naming the demographic you feel is actually persecuted here, you're turning a blind eye to centuries of prejudicial conflict and injustice - context that defeats your attempt at semantics.

Re:I/O 2022 by twofornone on Thursday May 12, 2022 @12:45AM (#31349402)
>To correct historic injustice we are obligated to immediately dismiss any grievances from white people, bonus for snark and sarcasm. When minorities complain, all claims are immediately valid, but if whites (and sometimes Asians, when politically expedient) raise legitimate concerns, they're just being fragile.

You didn't even read my post.

>Equality feels like persecution to those hold all the privileges

This is carte blanche to be racist to anyone defined as privileged by the socially/politically dominant group. You're playing with fire. Only a matter of time before, as in the past, the ire is directed at you and the people you think you're fighting for. How far down the privilege totem pole are you?

It's marxism through and through, except the proles and bourgeoise have been replaced with racial classes. I encourage you to at least read the communist manifesto and see the direct parallels, right down to the language of "oppression".

s/petite bourgeois/white adjacent/g s/proletariat/minority/g

Don't forget, they also usually have a little discussed special category for lumpenproletariat, where competent true believers go when they outlive their usefulness.

Re:I/O 2022 by SemanticStrengh on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @05:19PM (#31345930)
white colored downvote
Re:I/O 2022 by adamrezich on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @03:53PM (#31344901)
I will never understand why emoji, the whole point of which is to convey universal emotions (and other icons), ever needed skin tone modifiers at all. why do "thumbs up" and "thumbs up, but i'm white btw" need to be encoded differently? why is everyone OK with Native Americans and other ethnicities with reddish skin tones being excluded? just a complete mess top-to-bottom, and now we can basically never undo it.

imagine trying to explain to aliens from another planet 500 years from now why 500 years ago we decided to a.) include skin tone modifiers to begin with and b.) only allow for the gradation of skin colors that we do. beyond ridiculous.

EDIT: I forgot to mention how insanely ridiculous it is that we have these skin tone modifiers, but they don't even work for all "people" emoji, because of the obvious issue of rendering cartoon human faces in a way that isn't considered a racist caricature for many races. this makes sense of course, but I can't understand why, when this argument came up, they didn't just choose to scrap the whole idea instead of implementing it and restricting it to a subset of "people" emoji.

Re:I/O 2022 by sorenjan on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @05:30PM (#31346079)
Because people didn't understand that emoji was supposed to represent concepts, and saw them as small illustrations instead. That's also why Apple's version is basically the de facto standard now, and Google and Microsoft has had to adjust theirs to look more like Apple's to minimize confusion when the small pictograms doesn't look the same for sender and receiver.
Re:I/O 2022 by ben_w on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @04:20PM (#31345217)
People like customising these things to be mini-avatars as a form of self expression. I don’t see a reason to get upset about this option existing — not even from the perspective of “oh no strings are even weirder, I can’t safely treat them as a stream of bytes all the time”, given that combining characters are needed for other stuff anyway.

(No idea why you think other skin tones can’t be added later).

Re:I/O 2022 by adamrezich on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @04:51PM (#31345598)
>(No idea why you think other skin tones can’t be added later).

because why would we add further bloat and implementation complexity to something that is already bloated and complex to implement?

Re:I/O 2022 by ben_w on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @05:01PM (#31345712)
You believe that’s a reason to think it can’t be done?
Re:I/O 2022 by adamrezich on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @05:10PM (#31345814)
not at all, of course. realistically the biggest impediment to adding more skin tones is that if the list of additional skin tones wasn't completely exhaustive, there would be public outcry. as it stands right now, the simple gradient scale is "good enough," so there isn't much impetus to add any more.
Re:I/O 2022 by Lammy on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @05:16PM (#31345889)
> if the list of additional skin tones wasn't completely exhaustive, there would be public outcry

This is kind of how I felt when looking at the scale just now, because none of the 10 really look like me. Maybe it's supposed to be a round-down/up sort of thing, or maybe I should calibrate my display?

Re:I/O 2022 by twelvechairs on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @04:26PM (#31345281)
The default was yellow which basically represents white people.
Re:I/O 2022 by stickfigure on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @04:43PM (#31345510)
Maybe in an advanced stage of liver failure. It's really stretching to say yellow == white. The default color made nobody happy, which is exactly why it was the right solution to the problem.
Re:I/O 2022 by twelvechairs on Friday May 13, 2022 @12:20AM (#31363276)
There's a good history of it in Lego here [0]. You can see its a complex relationship but yellow has been used for caucasians (and asians) and has always had a difficult relationship for people of color.

[0] https://www.quora.com/Why-do-LEGO-minifigures-have-yellow-he...

Re:I/O 2022 by SemanticStrengh on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @04:51PM (#31345596)
actually the excessive yellowness brillantly avoided the uncanny valley of half-baked underspecified realism
Re:I/O 2022 by disgruntledphd2 on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @04:33PM (#31345360)
I mean, sortof, I guess, maybe.

Given the history, one could make an argument that they represent Asians rather than Caucasians (it's always seemed odd to me that we ended up with this name for white(r) people, but such is life).

Re:I/O 2022 by SemanticStrengh on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @05:32PM (#31346095)
white skinned people should be called beige skinned people. Only albinos could pretend to whitehish-ness and still they are mostly not, because even if their skin maximally reflect light, they are still made of blood. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albinism_in_humans BTW humans can become easily become black in a continuous like manner https://alchetron.com/cdn/melanotan-ii-d26dbedd-94fb-434a-8d... extreme: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3198931/Reddit-user...

It's a very nice technology and is an example of permanent whole body genetic mutation via epigenetics.The issue is that it is irreversible.. The converse, a whitening substance does not exist yet but could exist in theory, by antagonizing the melanin receptors.

Re:I/O 2022 by adamrezich on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @04:47PM (#31345561)
this is the most insane recurring argument and I'll never understand it. sure that's how The Simpsons works, but that's not how LEGO works, so that argument gets canceled out. then you look at the yellow smiley face iconography that I'm sure has cultural roots somewhere but was universally used to specifically express universality—back when WAL*MART used it as their logo, were they specifically trying to market to white people, at the exclusion of all others??

then you take the history of emoji into account and you see that that doesn't really work as an explanation at all. it's like you (and everyone else who makes this inane argument) are trying to make something that's not white-people-centric, white-people-centric, just so you can complain about it being white-people-centric.

Re:I/O 2022 by twelvechairs on Friday May 13, 2022 @12:18AM (#31363275)
> that's not how LEGO works

It is how Lego originated. See discussion at [0]. Early on they had a limited palette and would use yellow for caucasians and asians and at times used black for POC and red for native americans. The time where everything was yellow is also quite limited - and there was pushback from non-cacuasians until they were forced to include skin colours in NBA sets.

[0] https://www.quora.com/Why-do-LEGO-minifigures-have-yellow-he...

Re:I/O 2022 by adamrezich on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @01:48PM (#31414095)
> The time where everything was yellow is also quite limited

1978-2003 is hardly a limited timespan in the history of LEGO!

> and there was pushback from non-cacuasians until they were forced to include skin colours in NBA sets.

right, because this is when they decided to make minifigs look like real people, instead of imaginary, race-neutral-ish, yellow people, once they got into licensing the appearance of real people for their minifigs!

Re:I/O 2022 by reaperducer on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @05:21PM (#31345964)
The default was yellow which basically represents white people.

I guess you missed the day Yellow Peril was covered in history class.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Peril

Re:I/O 2022 by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @04:45PM (#31345537)
Really? The default was yellow because that's what Franklin Loufrani used back in the 1970s in France, and he's (probably) the one responsible for the smiley becoming a global icon. Did he intend yellow to mean white people? I'm highly skeptical, but I'd be open to listening if you have some documentation...
Re:I/O 2022 by three_seagrass on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @05:10PM (#31345821)
You're being downvoted but you're kinda right.

The longest running cartoon show in history (The Simpsons) uses yellow to represent white people, while POC are brown and black.

Re:I/O 2022 by SemanticStrengh on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @05:33PM (#31346119)
in racists terms, yellow has always denoted asian people (which is weird btw), simpsons are a coincidence
Re:I/O 2022 by three_seagrass on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @07:45PM (#31347476)
It doesn't matter if the decision was intentional or coincidence, the fact remains the most popular TV cartoon in history has trained our expectations.
Re:I/O 2022 by adamrezich on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @08:12PM (#31347657)
race-neutral smiley faces and LEGO minifigs predate The Simpsons—you're just taking your personal experience and projecting it onto everyone else.
Re:I/O 2022 by three_seagrass on Thursday May 12, 2022 @01:32PM (#31357288)
Sure, but Lego didn't have brown and black for POC. The training of expectations isn't exclusive, and more people consumed The Simpsons than Legos.
Re:I/O 2022 by SemanticStrengh on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @04:52PM (#31345622)
It can and should be undone. There is a difference between the identifier and the representation, android should render color skinned emojis in their yellow equivalent, as simple as that.