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Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by tehwebguy on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @08:09PM (#31334259)
Weirdly enough I don't see anything the ACLU is doing in the article that's particularly left or even progressive, just barely Democrat. My guess is there's 100x as much money available to an org fighting for a particular party's most important items at a given moment vs actually looking for free speech violations.
Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by cjsplat on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @08:52PM (#31334583)
The ACLU on Northern California is the #3 donor (over $300k) for the effort to reject the recall of the progressive DA in SF. (sfethics.org list of actual donors, not guesswork).

Regardless of one's position on the recall, it seems an odd thing for the N. Cal ACLU to be putting over 5% of it's operating budget into this campaign.

Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by hedora on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @09:42PM (#31334913)
I guess it depends on what stances the DA has on civil liberties issues (vs their likely replacements).
Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by lazide on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @02:51AM (#31336612)
The SF DA refuses to prosecute pretty much any crime. Seriously.
Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by cjsplat on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @10:05PM (#31335056)
Or perhaps whether the ACLU ever expects to bring a case against the City and County of SF.

You know - perhaps like protests vs the City, or on public streets near the Federal Court.

Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by randbox on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @08:48PM (#31334552)
Yes, the level-headed take is that an organization has not taken a "hard-left turn" unless they are calling for redistributing the land and cancelling the debt.
Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by crmd on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @09:15PM (#31334751)
They are based in the United States of America which is a relatively conservative country.
Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by AlchemistCamp on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @12:54AM (#31335968)
Unless your baseline is "Nordic countries" or similar, the US is pretty far to the left.

This is true regardless of whether you look at the size of the government, relative to the economy or where it sits on the spectrum between ethno-nationalist vs self-criticism/openness to outsiders. The US has a much larger than average sized government spending vs the size of its economy and it takes in three times more immigrants per year than any other country.

By comparison, China, Japan, India and other major world powers are considerably further to the right. Even influential small countries such as Israel and Singapore are also a bit more conservative.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_governmen...

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/immigrati...

Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by spupe on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @03:57AM (#31337060)
> Unless your baseline is "Nordic countries" or similar, the US is pretty far to the left.

How about most of Europe and Latin America?

It is hard to define what "left" means nowadays but it is telling that you believe the "size of the government", as defined by mostly military spending, can consist as a checkbox for being part of the left.

Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by AlchemistCamp on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @05:13AM (#31337532)
>it is telling that you believe the "size of the government", as defined by mostly military spending

Be honest here.

None of the budgets of any governments mentioned are "defined by mostly military spending".

Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by spupe on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @06:03AM (#31337807)
I am not arguing about the other governments you mentioned, I am arguing that it is simply incorrect to use "size of government" as a measure of how "left" a country is, particularly when using the US as an example. The US is notorious for having very bad safety nets while disproportionately investing in military, both of which are hardly causes favoured by the left.
Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by AlchemistCamp on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @06:42AM (#31338080)
Military spending in the US is dwarfed by entitlements spending.

Even then, much of that military spending has been going towards the defense of allies that underinvest in their own defense.

Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by ohashi on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @04:29AM (#31337290)
Not sure where the claim about taking immigrants is coming from, according to the OECD: https://stats.oecd.org/viewhtml.aspx?datasetcode=MIG&lang=en

Germany takes more and this is raw numbers not adjusted by the size of the country. Germany is less than a third the size of the US and taking more. Spain takes 60% as many immigrants as the US and is roughly 1/7 the population.

Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by AlchemistCamp on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @05:11AM (#31337517)
> Not sure where the claim about taking immigrants is coming from

The link was right at the bottom of the comment and if you click it, you'll see data sources mentioned prominently.

As of 2020, the US has 50.6 million foreign born immigrants, while Germany, which was #2, had 15.8 million. Adjusted for current population it's fairly close. The UK, in contrast had 9.4M, and Spain 6.8M. All of these countries have immigrant populations compared to world averages.

You could nitpick at time frames or various other ways to slice the data but there's no defensible claim that the US accepts fewer immigrants than most countries.

Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by paisawalla on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @10:25PM (#31335176)
One of their most visible (on Twitter) attorneys is a transgender person who openly called for "stopping the circulation" of a book discussing critically the transgender phenomenon [0]. This is the same org that once fought for a neo-Nazi organization's right to hold a march. From "I may not agree with your opinion, but I'll defend your right to say it," to "we must prevent opposing views from being heard" in under a decade.

0: https://www.iwf.org/2020/11/16/some-in-aclu-have-new-cause-b...

Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by verall on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @12:03AM (#31335716)
"$AUTHOR has actual courage" - Ben Shapiro - the back of that book

Something something paradox of tolerance

Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by Siira on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @01:54PM (#31343481)
Paradox of tolerance is A) not obviously true, B) only applies to extreme acts, otherwise you have zero tolerance.
[dead]
Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by hedora on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @09:45PM (#31334929)
They have an odd interpretation of it:

https://www.aclu.org/other/second-amendment

and don't seem to support the right to own a gun.

Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by goodoldneon on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @10:48PM (#31335323)
The 2nd Amendment isn’t as cut and dry “minimal gun restrictions” like some organizations want you to believe. I think the ACLU’s interpretation is defensible
Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by hattmall on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @11:36PM (#31335584)
Except they don't defend it. If they did they would be advocating against standing armies. If it's believed to be a collective right to promote the common defense then the scale of the US Military is a major affront to that. But realistically we are so far removed from what the founders envisioned we we should do a total redraft.
Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by goodoldneon on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @08:56AM (#31339257)
An army, like a militia, would fall under "collective right". So I don't see how their stance is against standing armies.

Re: redraft, I go back and forth. I think if we want to be textualists then we need a redraft because the founders couldn't possibly have envisioned the modern world. The idea of redrafting isn't that radical -- Thomas Jefferson wanted it [1].

But pragmatically, I don't think we'll ever redraft it. Both liberals and conservatives would have to agree to a redraft (they won't) and then agree on what the new draft would be (they won't). The only way to modernize the Constitution and Bill of Rights is to interpret it using a modern lens. "What would this document mean if it was written with today's world in mind?"

[1] https://news.illinois.edu/view/6367/206732

Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by tshaddox on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @11:58PM (#31335693)
What’s odd about that interpretation? Isn’t that just one of the two mainstream interpretations of the second amendment?
Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by smsm42 on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @12:43AM (#31335931)
Basically they say The Founders wrote the whole amendment in the Bill of Rights to express the right of US to have an army (that's the only way I can make sense of the term of "collective right" with regard to keeping and bearing arms). That's kind of weird - first of all, the Army is already mentioned in the Constitution, why mention it again? Second of all, who would really argue the US government can't have an army - what case would such amendment serve, what argument it would resolve? Amendments usually address some important questions or establish some important principles - e.g. protection of freedom of speech, or personal freedoms, or freedom of religion, etc. - and limiting the power of state to infringe on those. Seeing "also, US Government can have an army" among these is kinda odd, at least it does look odd to me. I can't shake the feeling that is is not a serious interpretation but more of a legalistic trick - we pre-decided we don't want to give people access to the guns, and now we have a task of reconciling the text of the Constitution which seemingly contradicts that with this conclusion, so we invent this concept of "collective right". Which AFAIK doesn't exist for any other right, does it? You don't call 1st, or 4th, or 5th, or 6th amendment rights "collective". Even for rights "found" later - be it privacy, or access to certain medical procedures - nobody I know argues it's a "collective" right which can not be accessed by individuals but only through the intermediacy of the state functionaries. It seems to be the only one that this argument appears in. That is certainly something one would consider "odd".
Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by tshaddox on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @01:14AM (#31336062)
> Basically they say The Founders wrote the whole amendment in the Bill of Rights to express the right of US to have an army (that's the only way I can make sense of the term of "collective right" with regard to keeping and bearing arms). That's kind of weird - first of all, the Army is already mentioned in the Constitution, why mention it again?

There’s an important word right there in the (extremely short) text of the amendment: “militia.” That word explains why the amendment exists in addition to the constitution’s mention of the army: it’s because army and militia are different things. We agree that the amendment very clearly is not referring to the right of the United States government to maintain an army, but I see no indication that the ACLU or any other significant groups believe that.

But it seems odd to me that the first 13 of the 27 words of the amendment would explain why militias are important, when a militia would be an extremely rare use case for owning a firearm.

Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by smsm42 on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @12:54PM (#31342629)
> it’s because army and militia are different things.

OK, then where's that militia which is not an army but is a "collective" that is not composed of individuals owning, keeping and bearing arms? Which structure is it referring to? I can't find anything matching the description in the US (outside the army which we excluded, and the police, which doesn't fit either and isn't a federal business anyway). Moreover, I can't find anything matching the description anywhere in the world either - if we look at other countries that have people bearing arms outside the army - e.g. Switzerland - they keep and bear arms personally, not "collectively". So again, it looks odd - what exactly does this right mean? It again sounds like "it's not what you mean, you can't have the gun, it's 'collective'" - ok, so tell me, what does it mean then? Unlike many other concepts in the Constitution, this one seems pretty tough to figure out.

Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by tshaddox on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @05:44PM (#31346251)
I think you are confused on what these terms mean. "Collective right" obviously does not mean that that individuals cannot own guns. It means that the right to own guns is in the context of a regulated militia. Obvious regulations that a militia might want to have are minimum age requirements, training requirements, equipment safety requirements (such as requiring owners to store and transport their guns safely and perform regular maintenance). "Collective right" means that the right isn't an individual right, in other words, individuals do not have the right to buy, sell, and own any firearm they want in any condition they want for any purpose they want.

These definitions are abundantly clear in any good-faith conversation about gun policy. The ACLU in particular is quite clear about which policies they believe infringe on civil liberties and which do not. For instance, the ACLU's position is that laws which restrict the types of weapons or ammunitions which can be owned generally do not infringe on civil liberties, while laws which restrict categories of people from owning guns often do infringe on civil rights (the examples they give are immigrants and people with mental disabilities). Incidentally, the ACLU also believes that many current federal restrictions on gun ownership do infringe on civil liberties, like the prohibition of certain convicted criminals and people with mental disabilities when there is no indication of violent behavior.

Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by hedora on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @11:40PM (#31349025)
Ok. Cool. I want to start a modern militia, with tanks and tactical nukes and satellites and stuff (with the charter of protecting my state).

How do I get the right permit or pass the certification exam, or whatever?

The US used to have state militias, but they morphed into the National Guard, which serves a different purpose.

Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by smsm42 on Thursday May 12, 2022 @12:38AM (#31349364)
> It means that the right to own guns is in the context of a regulated militia.

Ok this is already an oddity. There's no second such right. I mean, the right for religious freedom does not require you to join a regulated religion (even if many do join organized religions). The right for free speech does not require you to be a journalist. The right for speedy trial does not require you to join a speedy trial club and pass regular legal training. And so on. This is what I'd call odd. But there's more.

> Obvious regulations that a militia might want to have are minimum age requirements, training requirements, equipment safety requirements (such as requiring owners to store and transport their guns safely and perform regular maintenance).

OK let's assume so. Note that most gun regulations in anti-gun states and cities have little to do with this - but let's assume that's what ACLU wants.

> For instance, the ACLU's position is that laws which restrict the types of weapons or ammunitions which can be owned generally do not infringe on civil liberties

How this follows? How "you can not own a gun with certain feature" fits with the above? Does this feature prevent training, or is particularly unsafe, or preclude safe transportation and storage? Not at the least. So how does it fit in this concept? It comes to the comical, that two models of the same gun, with small cosmetic change, may one be legal and another illegal in certain states (OK, let's not be coy, in California) - can anybody seriously argue that's because one can be used in militia and another can't? That's beyond odd, that makes no sense. I mean if we talked about guns that somehow useless to militia (don't know, let's assume you found an argument that specific type of a gun is so peculiar that no militia would ever have a reason to use it) - ok, I'm willing to accept that makes sense in that framework. But that's not how the regulations that ACLU supports and endorses work!

> while laws which restrict categories of people from owning guns often do infringe on civil rights

Again, how does it work? You named age restriction yourself. Isn't it "category of people"? But let's say we talk about people who are violently insane, or that are career felons, maybe violent gangsters who were imprisoned for many years for their crimes. You don't want such guys in your militia, probably, right? If you have them there, they'd probably loot everything instead of defending the fellow citizens, maybe? Yet it's absolutely "category of people". Let's take mental disabilities - of course, there is a whole gamut of disabilities, but in general you'd want your militia to be mentally stable, right? So how does it work? It looks again that the position does not even have internal consistency, that's even before anybody would start to attack it on merits of its principles! Again, that's a very odd position to hold.

Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by lukas099 on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @05:34AM (#31337647)
Doesn't the NRA pretty much have that covered?
Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by galangalalgol on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @07:33AM (#31338385)
They seem to mostly represent the manufacturers.
Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by l33t2328 on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @09:24PM (#31334809)
It’s not the American Libertarian Anarchist Union
Re:The ACLU Has Lost Its Way by galangalalgol on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @10:03PM (#31335035)
That is a really cool name. My hyperbole was to point out that they are picking and choosing which "civil liberties" are valid, independent of law and judicial precedent. They totally have that right, but their positions do align with the US moderate left on most issues, including firearms.