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Re:E Ink Gallery 3 by mertd on Thursday April 28, 2022 @11:40AM (#31193878)
They are either impossibly incompetent or there is something about the technology that makes mass availability in different form factors not viable and our laymen understanding doesn't see it.
Re:E Ink Gallery 3 by robinsoh on Thursday April 28, 2022 @01:07PM (#31195088)
> They are either impossibly incompetent or there is something about the technology that makes mass availability in different form factors not viable and our laymen understanding doesn't see it.

You are correct, it is the equivalent of me as a display engineer coming here and saying "Cray computers has an active incentive to keep it out of consumer's hands" or alleging "Microsoft is blocking progress in the operating system industry using their patent". If you examine my comment history, you'll see I've tried repeatedly before on HN to explain why the physics of electrophoresis is the dominant limitation in the industry but that is apparently harder to understand and harder to accept, whereas people saying things like "the company behind the tech has an active incentive to keep it out of consumers' hands." or "the technology is locked by a company that doesn't innovate nor mass produce their tech. " without citations or any evidence is accepted as the gospel truth. :-)

Re:E Ink Gallery 3 by haroldp on Thursday April 28, 2022 @06:05PM (#31198785)
Why does my 12 year old kindle-keyboard refresh so much faster and better than any eink hobby display that I can buy? Do you think there is any hope of this changing?
Re:E Ink Gallery 3 by captainmuon on Friday April 29, 2022 @02:20AM (#31202014)
The panels are very similar. Amazon made their own driver board, and they put a lot of work into tuning it. The ones you can buy for hobbyists have very cheap driver boards that are merely "good enough".

Why they can't be a dollar or two more expensive and have better components, or why they can't just release the firmware source so people can improve it, I have no idea. I would almost say they are intentionally limiting it, but I've seen the same behavior from single-board-computer vendors, for example. It's really short sighted.

Re:E Ink Gallery 3 by robinsoh on Friday April 29, 2022 @03:04AM (#31202229)
> why they can't just release the firmware source so people can improve it

Isn't kindle firmware published open source? What is in this stuff that they provide? https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=...

Re:E Ink Gallery 3 by captainmuon on Friday April 29, 2022 @03:12AM (#31202280)
The operating system (based on Linux) is open source. For some reason, people call the OS image firmware when it is on an "embedded" device. I rather mean the firmware of the e-ink driver board, which is a trade secret. I don't know, maybe it is not even firmware in an MCU, but they have a dedicated driver chip and it just has the look-up-tables. Anyway, the secret sauce that tells you how to drive the display cells.
Re:E Ink Gallery 3 by robinsoh on Friday April 29, 2022 @09:50AM (#31205059)
> I rather mean the firmware of the e-ink driver board, which is a trade secret. I don't know, maybe it is not even firmware in an MCU, but they have a dedicated driver chip and it just has the look-up-tables. Anyway, the secret sauce that tells you how to drive the display cells.

Huh? What e-ink driver board? There's no such thing inside a Kindle. It is a straight NXP SoC that drives the e-ink panel directly. There is no MCU. The driver is open source. https://github.com/canselcik/libremarkable/blob/master/refer...

"Secret sauce that tells you how to drive the display cells"? You mean like a voltage table that is also present inside every LCD or OLED? The difference would be that the electrophoretic display would need a much bigger table so it would have to be kept on the SoC since it can't possibly fit into a single voltage driver circuit. That's not software, that's just a big table of voltages that's hardcoded for each unique panel. Is that what you think is "secret sauce"? Do you also want to extract that table inside each LCD drive circuit as well? I guess you could use it to make your LCD or OLED panel show brighter colors but at the risk of burning and damaging the crystals. I imagine the same risk would also be true for electrophoretic panels or anything where you can change the physical voltage that is being applied to the material.

Re:E Ink Gallery 3 by marcjuul on Friday April 29, 2022 @11:09AM (#31206141)
It's actually simpler than a table of voltages. It's a series of trinary values that indicate whether to use positive, negative or zero voltage. The actual voltage used is static (even the specialized EPDC PMIC (which _is_ a separate chip) doesn't allow changing it on the devices I've seen). The waveform (as they call the lookup table) is sometimes actually stored on a separate flash chip soldered on to the display's built-in cable. Years ago I wrote a tool to decode and convert the proprietary formats used by the E Ink corporation for these: https://github.com/fread-ink/inkwave
Re:E Ink Gallery 3 by robinsoh on Saturday April 30, 2022 @01:27AM (#31213572)
> I wrote a tool to decode and convert the proprietary formats used by the E Ink corporation for these: https://github.com/fread-ink/inkwave

Just curious, I previously saw claims on HN that E-Ink is a very brutal cruel company that is evil and attacks everybody. That didn't line up with how their staff, at least the materials science guys, seemed to be when I encountered them at SID. I've been asking for evidence for this on HN. Did they try to take down your tool or anything like that?

Re:E Ink Gallery 3 by captainmuon on Friday April 29, 2022 @11:25AM (#31206352)
Yes, but at the same time I think it is more complicated than a table of voltages. I don't know about the OG kindle, but more recent e-ink displays have a multi-parameter look up table. The applied voltage and duration also depends on this history of the cell (the current color you think it is showing) and the temperature. Depending on how many color and temperature steps you use, the tables can become very big.

In hobbyist displays, the tables are very simple, and I'm pretty sure this is one source of quality differences.

Re:E Ink Gallery 3 by robinsoh on Thursday April 28, 2022 @09:26PM (#31200306)
> Why does my 12 year old kindle-keyboard refresh so much faster and better than any eink hobby display that I can buy? Do you think there is any hope of this changing?

I have no idea what you mean by "refresh so much faster and better" or what an "eink hobby display" is. To me, you can buy the same panel Kindle uses on the market and you can drive it with various different controllers and the "update latency" (electrophoretic panels don't refresh) will be different.

Re:E Ink Gallery 3 by derefr on Thursday April 28, 2022 @12:07PM (#31194275)
Conspiracy theory: it's because e-ink technology has military (stealth / penaid) applications. (See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=499TkWOl4PM; then picture a "chameleon jet-fighter" that syncs its color to the surrounding sky; or better yet, a chameleon missile. Without losing range due to needing to power active panels.)

I don't necessarily mean to imply that the military is restricting the tech for competitive reasons; but rather just that E Ink Corporation might be price-anchoring relative to what their biggest customer is willing to pay.

(See also: why "holographic glitter" is so expensive, compared to other metallic glitters. Holo-glitter paint is an effective radar diffuser; and, more obviously, the glitter itself is literally https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaff_(countermeasure) !)

Re:E Ink Gallery 3 by h2odragon on Thursday April 28, 2022 @12:35PM (#31194697)
Another conspiracy theory: the LCD cartel has been paying them not to compete. Given any actual difficulties yet to be worked out for mass production of eink (and there's always something), they may just be making more money by threatening to compete with LCD displays than they could by actually doing so.
Re:E Ink Gallery 3 by ggm on Thursday April 28, 2022 @06:44PM (#31199163)
Holo glitter works in the radar domain. So, its passive tech which has an effect.

EInk has a refresh time. Which is a significant mismatch to the flight speed of devices which seek to mask themselves against changing background. More to the point, optical detection is the least worry in this space. by the time it's visible in motion, its already a problem. '

For on-the-ground, its easier to put it under a canopy.

EInk does nothing for radar, or thermal imaging. So your proposed conspiracy is to defeat human eyes, which rarely if ever are the first-spotters. The circumstances where using radar breaches your own privacy are understood. I would expect an ML vision system could defeat this anyway. (and I say that as a bit of a long-term non-believer in AI)

I love a good conspiracy, but alas, I think this isn't it. The grassy knoll is just, after all, a patch of grass, and not an EInk facsimile, in my personal opinion.

Re:E Ink Gallery 3 by derefr on Thursday April 28, 2022 @09:40PM (#31200402)
Not from below. From above. IMINT countermeasure, to make countries with imaging satellites take longer to notice you flying silent over water into their airspace (presuming you've already got MASINT stealth covered, and are moving onto higher-hanging fruit.) Gives aircraft the same long-distance stealth advantage a sub has: they don't see you coming until you're there.

(Admittedly, I was being a bit silly with the missile use-case.)

Re:E Ink Gallery 3 by ggm on Thursday April 28, 2022 @10:36PM (#31200758)
Being able to retint your visible spectrum view from 10,000ft and above would be useful, I agree.

I occasionally see referrals in flow text to a Chinese claim they invented "holographic quantum" radar and can see all current stealth low echo aircraft and subs. I suspect it's bullshit but in war, if stealth was a purturbation, and deep water subs a more historical perturbation toward MAD and now, this is another perturbation much as drones have altered the symmetry for tank and mechanised ground warfare.. "shrug"

Re:E Ink Gallery 3 by hattmall on Thursday April 28, 2022 @07:08PM (#31199360)
Could be great for low altitude drones and helicopters though
Re:E Ink Gallery 3 by xvector on Thursday April 28, 2022 @06:15PM (#31198882)
> a "chameleon jet-fighter" that syncs its color to the surrounding sky;

would be largely worthless as visual isn't really the primary way we detect and destroy aircraft anymore.

Re:E Ink Gallery 3 by derefr on Thursday April 28, 2022 @09:37PM (#31200382)
In combat, sure. Making yourself invisible to satellite imagery during long-range flyover missions, on the other hand...
Re:E Ink Gallery 3 by jve on Thursday April 28, 2022 @11:50AM (#31194044)
Yeah I wonder if price point is justified or not.

Accessible pricing may result in eink screens taking consumers, businesses, hobbyists and whatnot by storm. But meh...