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Re:Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession ... by tetraca on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @05:04PM (#31185791)
> Staying when you want to leave indicates there's enough compensation to 'make it worth it' at least versus whatever shitty alternatives you have. Leaving when you want to stay, to me, would be a much bigger indicator that nurses who want to stay in the profession can't because of wage/benefits/conditions issues.

I think the conclusion of this sort of economic thinking is basically: Give your employees just enough money that they can keep they keep their head above the water but not enough to flourish, and just enough pressure/responsibility that they don't have energy to do anything else, but not too much that they have a complete mental breakdown that leaves them with the conclusion that they should leave your industry at any cost.

When you spent a lot of time and money into a specialized and demanding career, I imagine it practically very difficult to actually change your career, even if it's killing you. It's probably even worse if you have familial obligations. You likely do not have time or energy to better your situation after hours, and if you quit, you potentially resign yourself (perhaps) to many years of destitution while you accumulate the necessary knowledge to do something else. I would not be surprised if many people just bear bad conditions because the cost to do anything else worth one's time is simply too high.

Re:Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession ... by XorNot on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @08:53PM (#31187651)
It also cues your organization up for a failure cascade. You don't have workers who want to stay, you have workers who are forced to stay. As soon as they can leave, you're not going to lose "1 or 2" you're pretty likely to use a substantial plurality since whatever changed probably changed for all of them at the same time. Can your organization survive with 50% of the staff giving 4 weeks notice at the same time?
Re:Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession ... by throwaway48375 on Thursday April 28, 2022 @12:07AM (#31188612)
Just sue them to prevent them from being able to quit.

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2022-01-24/wisconsin-...

Re:Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession ... by MomoXenosaga on Thursday April 28, 2022 @11:35AM (#31193809)
Wow that's basically indentured servitude. We are going back a 150 years in time!
Re:Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession ... by vkou on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @11:26PM (#31188418)
> Can your organization survive with 50% of the staff giving 4 weeks notice at the same time?

Yes, you hire them back at travel nurse rates, while you lobby for your state legislators to ban your employees from doing any work if they quit.

Re:Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession ... by LilBytes on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @10:16PM (#31188106)
What we're seeing play out is essentially the Dead Sea Effect, but in Nursing.

https://medium.com/geekculture/the-dead-sea-effect-d71df1372...

Re:Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession ... by Nasrudith on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @08:07PM (#31187344)
That conclusion would be fallacious, although many on both sides believe it. For one it ignores both growth potential and relative costs. High productivity workers can and do utterly dominate in ways which more than make up for it. And miserable employees are mercurial in quality at best relative to happy and motivated ones.

I recall hearing about one desert conflict "gratuitous" allocation of several times the prior typical water per day resulted in outsized military performance. I think it may have been the Six Day War. But Silicon Valley is basically the exemplar of that business model as they specifically go with a very high COL area in the world's richest country instead of mass outsourcing. Even assuming that the actor is a heartless and selfish bastard what truly matters first is net profit.

It is the same fallacious false economy seen both among slaveowners and the Soviet Union. That the labor is free or already paid for so don't worry about its efficiency.

Re:Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession ... by scaramanga on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @09:28PM (#31187836)
The caring professions are quite a special case. The worse things get, the more carers care.

They are not like computer programmers who can make an industrial process be 10,000x faster. They cannot magically care 10,000x more, no matter how relaxed and comfortable they are.

Furthermore, as they are pushed closer and closer to failure, the collapse in patient care standards does not result in a collapse in profit. People aren't going to not seek medical treatment, it's a basic human need, sometimes a life or death need.

So we're back to the question: does that mean they should be exploited and milked of all their caring, at the same time the standard of care collapses, because the economic incentives reward that?

And that is fundamentally a moral/humanitarian question in which you have to make an adult moral judgement.

Re:Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession ... by nradov on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @06:02PM (#31186372)
Employers are going to pay the minimum wages they can in order to retain sufficient workers. They obviously aren't going to voluntarily pay extra just so that employees can flourish.

There are a lot of jobs openings available to someone with an RN certificate and some experience. Unemployment in that group is close to zero. They don't all work in direct patient care roles.

Re:Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession ... by scaramanga on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @09:30PM (#31187853)
It looks like you accidentally "did a communism" by arguing for nationalizing health and putting patient-care considerations above market considerations :)
Re:Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession ... by nradov on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @09:49PM (#31187946)
Communism never has worked and never will work. We should just set legal minimum standards for patient care quality. Hospitals can then do whatever they need to comply with those standards, including setting nurse wages at whatever the market dictates.
Re:Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession ... by scaramanga on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @10:09PM (#31188065)
Thanks Ayn Rand, a more astute reader might see the meme phrase, the scare quotes, the smiley, and see the obvious humorous intention :)

But I'll go ahead and explain the joke. There is a long history of the private sector using the spectre of communism (or socialism, or "big government" or "nanny state") as a canard to prevent sensible policies eg. anything that would improve patient care, even if it were at minuscule costs and will use that canard to justify lobbying aggressively to prevent it. And if they cannot obstruct legislative action then they switch to defunding the state bodies which enforce the regulations as an exercise in "cost cutting" because "the state is wasting your hard earned taxes!!" etc.

Hope you have a better rest of your day.

Edit: I mean, once you have set a regulation, and established a body to police it, you have already interfered with the market, so even what you are suggesting could be described as having "done a communism"

Re:Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession ... by notch656a on Thursday April 28, 2022 @12:25PM (#31194547)
>Edit: I mean, once you have set a regulation, and established a body to police it, you have already interfered with the market, so even what you are suggesting could be described as having "done a communism"

Exactly, remove regulations from health care. I'm dead serious. Regulatory burden on nurses and health care workers are insane. It's completely plausible the net effect would be far more people saved than lost, due to greater access to healthcare and lower burdens to achieving outcomes.

Re:Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession ... by nradov on Thursday April 28, 2022 @12:51PM (#31194873)
Which specific regulations would you propose to remove? Everyone loves the idea of reducing regulatory burden but they always fail to give specifics.

For example, hospitals spend a lot of money complying with CMS reporting rules on iatrogenic harm such as bed sores and secondary infections. Should they stop doing that?

Re:Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession ... by notch656a on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:32PM (#31197152)
> Everyone loves the idea of reducing regulatory burden but they always fail to give specifics.

You're right, apologies for not being specific.

>Which specific regulations would you propose to remove?

Specifically, all of them.

>Should they stop doing that?

Object to framing of the question. Hints at a false dichotomy. Desirable outcomes can be achieved without precisely following a regulation.

Re:Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession ... by FireBeyond on Thursday April 28, 2022 @04:30PM (#31197827)
I love it. Libertarians and similar always like to say "communism sucks, can not work, can never work, is a completely broken model"... when the reality is that 1) they _dislike_ the model (which doesn't make it broken), and/or 2) that communism, like many systems, works well, until annoying corrupt humans wanting money, power or both start interfering with the ecosystem.

The second point is entirely accurate. It's one of the major factors that makes communism, socialism, untenable in many ways.

What's hilarious / frustrating is how these same people think that humans in a libertarian utopia won't be corrupt, won't want for money and power, and as a result, "Sure, remove all regulation - the market will get more efficient! It certainly won't end up like the railroads in the 19th century, or something out of an Upton Sinclair novel!"

Re:Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession ... by notch656a on Thursday April 28, 2022 @05:00PM (#31198156)
I choose free markets BECAUSE everyone is corrupt, not the other way around. Regulators, who are third parties to the transaction beholden to neither those seeking health care nor those offering it, are the most susceptible to corruption. Regulators need eliminated to reduce corruption, amongst other things.
Re:Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession ... by salawat on Thursday April 28, 2022 @11:32PM (#31201088)
It's always the regulators isn't it?

Never the supplier using ill gotten capital from predatory business practices to lobby or perpetrate regulatory capture.

Nope, it's always those pesky regulators sticking their hands out. Never those Captains of Industry! Paragons of Humanity and Unquestionable Beings of Moral Fiber and Impeccably Ethical Manner!

Re:Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession ... by notch656a on Friday April 29, 2022 @10:24AM (#31205541)
>everyone is corrupt

What part of that didn't you understand? Where did I say the captains of industry aren't corrupt. I said "everyone."

The consumer has the power to voluntarily spend or not spend with a particular health care provider for the vast majority of health care decisions. Their providers are beholden to the customer.

The regulator, on the other hand, is not beholden to the customer this way. The regulator, are typically integrated as part of government and thus not only are they unbeholden to the customer but they also are part of the same entity as men with guns who can use violence to achieve their ends. They are nearly always unelected and only in the loosest sense does the customer have any control -- no one seriously votes for their senators / representative based on who they approve of in say the FDA (can 99% of voters even name a single regulator in say the FDA?) -- that vote is dominated by other even more important issues you need your representative for. These regulators are effectively an ultimate source of corruption, backed by guns and only in the most tangential sense accountable to consumers but with wide latitude to control industry in ways that harm the consumer.

Yes everyone is corrupt, including the 'captains of industry' and even the 'consumer' but regulators make things massively worse. Regulators create an amplification effect of corruption.