News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:LineageOS 19 by aaaaaaaaata on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @09:37AM (#31167311)
Lineage actively and knowingly break the Android Security Model in order to achieve widespread compatibility and reduce e-waste.

Security is not their top competency, nor mission.

Check out the pages on GrapheneOS.org, definitely seems they're who you're after.

Re:LineageOS 19 by zekica on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @10:39AM (#31168035)
Lineage doesn't "break" android security model. It works around OEMs that don't support installing your own keys in the bootloader. Otherwise, security model works the same as any other android.

LineageOS's first priority isn't security - it's freedom. Graphene and CalyxOS have security as the first priority - but have only a couple of phones on their support list and they deprecate old devices as soon as they stop receiving vendor updates.

Re:LineageOS 19 by lberrymage on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @02:18PM (#31171099)
Yes it does. They ship userdebug builds as production releases, pretend to support devices past their vendor EOL (which is impossible since Lineage can't provide security updates for firmware etc.), ship the F-Droid Privileged Extension (which uses an incorrect approach to implementing unattended updates), don't support locking the bootloader to enable verified boot on many supported devices, etc..
Re:LineageOS 19 by timschumi on Thursday April 28, 2022 @11:50AM (#31194036)
> They ship userdebug builds as production releases

`userdebug` is used to have a few specific debugging capabilities that aren't available on a `user` ROM. Note that this is not the same as the standard `userdebug`, as most security measures that would otherwise get removed are manually reinstated.

> pretend to support devices past their vendor EOL (which is impossible since Lineage can't provide security updates for firmware etc.)

So... no security fixes at all are better in your opinion?

> ship the F-Droid Privileged Extension (which uses an incorrect approach to implementing unattended updates),

Where are you getting this from? Neither F-Droid nor its privileged extension is included in the system.

> don't support locking the bootloader to enable verified boot on many supported devices

There is nothing that inherently prevents you from relocking your bootloader on LineageOS. But technically, something may go wrong at any time, so it neither is officially supported nor endorsed, and the keys necessary for relocking the bootloader are not provided.

If someone wants to, they can always just build LineageOS themselves (with all system modifications built-in, because anything else would break the signature), sign it with their own keys, and reconfigure their bootloader to use that key.

Re:LineageOS 19 by kelnos on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @06:28PM (#31173965)
> pretend to support devices past their vendor EOL

They don't "pretend" anything. They are very clear that, after a device no longer gets kernel/driver updates from the manufacturer, they can only provide OS/framework updates.

> don't support locking the bootloader to enable verified boot on many supported devices

Can you expand on this more? My understanding was that you could do this on Pixel phones, but that no other manufacturer supports adding user keys to the bootloader.

Re:LineageOS 19 by aaaaaaaaata on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @06:45PM (#31174094)
Some do.

The point is, it's not as secure to run around with this disabled.

No, it's not only about in-person or targeted attacks.

Re:LineageOS 19 by josephcsible on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @04:06PM (#31172517)
> They ship userdebug builds as production releases

What specific security problem does this cause?

> pretend to support devices past their vendor EOL (which is impossible since Lineage can't provide security updates for firmware etc.)

This is good for security. Not everyone can afford to get a new phone as soon as the vendor drops support, and just because you can't fix everything doesn't mean that you shouldn't fix what you can.

> ship the F-Droid Privileged Extension (which uses an incorrect approach to implementing unattended updates)

What's incorrect about it?

> don't support locking the bootloader to enable verified boot on many supported devices

This isn't really their fault. On most devices, relocking the bootloader with anything non-stock has a high chance of permanently hard bricking.

Re:LineageOS 19 by aaaaaaaaata on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @06:48PM (#31174111)
> This is good for security

No, it isn't. It's good for reducing e-waste, your security is on the line.

Having the newly shaped and colored Android UI doesn't do anything to fix security issues..

Re:LineageOS 19 by josephcsible on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @11:38PM (#31176026)
Security issues can occur in both the device-agnostic Android OS code and in device-specific drivers. Some people are going to continue to use phones after the vendor drops support. Although those people won't get security updates to their device-specific drivers anymore no matter what they do, by using LineageOS instead of their stock ROM, they will get security updates to the device-agnostic Android OS code.
Re:LineageOS 19 by snvzz on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @01:44PM (#31170624)
>LineageOS's first priority isn't security - it's freedom.

But, importantly, they also care about security, and you'll get security updates faster and more often than with the vendor's stock ROM.

Re:LineageOS 19 by aaaaaaaaata on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @03:50PM (#31172315)
Applying security patches to something that doesn't even do verified boot seems...hmmm
Re:LineageOS 19 by snvzz on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @04:43PM (#31172912)
Sure, because security is boolean. Either something is secure, or it is not.

This is sarcasm, to be clear.

(on my device, it is possible to just "fastboot oem lock", but that is aside the point)

Re:LineageOS 19 by josephcsible on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @10:18AM (#31167761)
> Lineage actively and knowingly break the Android Security Model

Can you provide evidence for this?

Re:LineageOS 19 by aaaaaaaaata on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @03:54PM (#31172356)
Always start here: https://source.android.com/security/

From another subthread:

> They ship userdebug builds as production releases, pretend to support devices past their vendor EOL (which is impossible since Lineage can't provide security updates for firmware etc.), ship the F-Droid Privileged Extension (which uses an incorrect approach to implementing unattended updates), don't support locking the bootloader to enable verified boot on many supported devices, etc..

Re:LineageOS 19 by josephcsible on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @04:07PM (#31172526)
> Always start here: https://source.android.com/security/

I don't see any evidence for your claim there.

> From another subthread:

Replied in that one.

Re:LineageOS 19 by aaaaaaaaata on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @06:50PM (#31174132)
I'm pointing you toward how things are meant to work, not arguing with you or leading you through your research.

If you want to skip paying $150 for a Pixel to use on Graphene or Calyx or something halfway decent, and "just use Lineage how bad could it be", be my guest!

Re:LineageOS 19 by josephcsible on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @12:32AM (#31176322)
The "Support length" table at https://calyxos.org/docs/guide/device-support/ shows that CalyxOS supports a bunch of devices even after the vendor drops support. For example, support for the Pixel 4a 5G ends in October 2023, but CalyxOS plans to support it until August 2024. It's unfair to recommend against LineageOS for doing that while supporting other custom ROMs that also do it.

Also, for supported Pixels $150 or less, https://swappa.com only has the Pixel 3a, which loses manufacturer support next month, and the Pixel 4, which loses manufacturer support 6 months from now.

Re:LineageOS 19 by salawat on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @12:39PM (#31169649)
>Android is designed for developers. Security controls were designed to reduce the burden on developers. Security-savvy developers can easily work with and rely on flexible security controls. Developers less familiar with security are protected by safe defaults.

In addition to providing a stable platform to build upon, Android gives additional support to developers in a number of ways. The Android security team looks for potential vulnerabilities in apps and suggests ways to fix those issues. For devices with Google Play, Play Services delivers security updates for critical software libraries, such as OpenSSL, which is used to secure app communications. Android security released a tool for testing SSL (nogotofail) that helps developers find potential security issues on whichever platform they are developing.

Vs.

>Android is designed for users. Users are provided visibility into the permissions requested by each app and control over those permissions. This design includes the expectation that attackers would attempt to perform common attacks, such as social engineering attacks to convince device users to install malware, and attacks on third-party apps on Android. Android was designed to both reduce the probability of these attacks and greatly limit the impact of the attack in the event that it was successful. (Read: Handcuff users to keep them from violating developer expectations and assumptions)

>Android security continues to progress after the device is in the user's hands. Android works with partners and the public to provide patches for any Android device that is continuing to receive security updates. (Read: we work with developers (them again)* to provide patches to devices that are convenient to deliver patches to)

>More information for end users can be found in the Nexus help center, Pixel help center, or your device manufacturer’s help center. (Read: we take no responsibility for explaining how any developer's use of this power is exercised, ask them!)*

>This page outlines the goals of the Android security program, describes the fundamentals of the Android security architecture, and answers the most pertinent questions for system architects and security analysts. It focuses on the security features of Android's core platform and doesn't discuss security issues that are unique to specific apps, such as those related to the browser or SMS app. (Again, even when talking about users, the language drifts back to people we'd lump under developers... who exactly is the User here?)

Then this gem:

>Verified Boot strives to ensure all executed code comes from a trusted source (usually device OEMs), rather than from an attacker or corruption (oh, is corruption where user programs are classed under?).

It establishes a full chain of trust (for whom, OEM's again?), starting from a hardware-protected root of trust to the bootloader (whose root of trust, OEM?), to the boot partition and other verified partitions.

Sorry, but the language used to describe all of this completely lets the cat out of the bag on who the Android community holds to be the true benefactors of your "ownership" of a handset.

https://source.android.com/security/

Straight from the source. Quiet parts emphasized and said out loud by me.

Android is the most transparently User/operator hostile piece of Open Source software I have ever had the misfortune of laying my eyes upon. The fact you basically have to be a developer to list and understand the things you need to do to get anything non-trivial done speaks volumes.