People created excellent UIs in the "shrink wrap" software era before people even had network connections. In fact, many would argue that some of these UIs were simpler and cleaner and overall better.
Oh wait... if by optimize a service you mean optimize it for engagement (addiction, triggering, controversy) then I agree.
But running a service like Youtube that keeps Google in the dark about what you are watching is not possible. It's not even that content creators would have to upload their content padded and encrypted, and privately share the content with their audiences, but the entire audience would need to privately aquire the content each time. A statistically or computationally secure solution like read-only ORAM is out of question at that scale, well any scale that's larger than a few gigabytes. Anything with a constant overhead would only amount to I downloaded five videos, guess what video did I end up watching? And Google would have a one in five chance to tell, if the requests are random, but over time they could still piece you together since your privacy equals to watching five videos at a time, revisiting videos, visiting popular ones, visiting certain ones at a certain time in a certain order. The client could throw in a few fake requests, but such constant effort would still be defeated.
I can imagine a lot of interfaces for sites like that which do not require personalized feedback at all. In fact, a rich search feature allowing me to say what I want to find would usually be preferable to an opaque recommendation engine designed to steer me toward content the site wants me to visit.
There is disagreement in the cryptography community about the extent to which this is actually possible. I've seen a few proofs that the obvious "magic" version of this where you can directly but blindly search is impossible because you could use search criteria to reconstruct the content, but that only rules out the most obvious implementation strategies. There's a lot of research going on with this kind of thing in the cryptographic community that involves leveraging zero knowledge proofs, homomorphic encryption, and so on. Nothing practical enough to make anything like a blind SQL database though.
In any case I was arguing against the claim that this would preclude good UI/UX design if it were in fact possible.
When I search YouTube I’m seldom looking for all videos made on August 29th. I might instead be looking for videos of a black cat. Or videos containing music with certain lyrics that I search for. This is what I thought you meant by rich search. I contend it’s unlikely you can design a privacy respecting service that can also extract the features necessary to train a search model.
dualitytech.com | cosmian.com | inpher.io | enveil.com | apheris.com | capeprivacy.com
I was hoping a16z had invested in one of these companies working on privacy-enhancing technologies (PET)... but no. May be, the tech is not quite there yet, or a16z doesn't yet have an "investment thesis" for it.
> This kind of technology would compromise the business model of many companies, but isn't it the goal of Web 3.0 to give ordinary people more control over their lives, their data?
A counter point to this is web3 institutions like the Algorand Foundation which employ some of the best cryptographers and security researchers who have gone on to make non-trivial contributions in PET and MPC (multi-party computation) fields.
I am stretching the truth a little bit here and it's more like "allows encrypted data/messages to be bidirectionally sent and exchanged two parties while the server is untrusted" because neither of these protocols allow for search. However, they /do/ allow for fully anonymous transactions + data storage, upon which you could build the rest of your social networks on top of.
So IMO the actual pace of technological innovation in crypto is quite strong. I'm not such a big fan of the NFT space, but DeFi and the truly anonymous coins are extremely interesting to me.
The difference is that those databases are much more efficient than blockchain technologies. The whole proof of work (voting power depends on computational effort) song and dance is unnecessary for a database. Even for a distributed database you only need a Byzantine agreement such as Paxos, which can only tolerate a certain number of faulty or malicious nodes. This would not work for cryptocurrencies, they need to tolerate arbitary number of such nodes (also known as a Sybil attack) to avoid the double spending problem. Cryptocurrency transactions are not I-confluent (invariant confluent), but certain database transactions are and they don't require consensus at all, so there are specialized databases that can tolerate arbitrary number of faulty or malicious nodes without Sybil countermeasures.
The problem with crypto is that a solution to a specific problem (eliminating the double spending problem trustlessly) can't be applied to every problem. There are trade-offs involved. Solving the double spending problem will let you have cryptocurrencies, but will lock you out of efficiently solving a lot of other problems.
ZK-tech, while super cool, is not super related IMO, but it is seem strange that the GP doesn't seem to consider it a worthwhile side effect of cryptocurrency hype.
long past its breaking point
From the HN guidelines:
>Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.
I see that you want to scold and give instructions to strangers
In the meantime, I also don't discuss medicine with antivaxxers, or geology with flat earthers
I have no interest in explaining to you that your lambo moon buddies are wrong, that blockchains aren't databases, that montero doesn't search encrypted data, that these things legitimately do exist, etc
It's just an opportunity for you to dutifully recite something that you saw someone else say, then pretend shows you to be technically sophisticated
I don't care about horse apple paste people telling me that I'm not being constructive when I vocally doubt their unevidenced claims
Nobody cares when you demand that other people prove you wrong. Religious people do that all day every day.
There's a reason religion never proves itself right.
I don't need to prove my doubt of you. Science is rooted in doubt.
In particular, you'd do well to look at these three guidelines:
> Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community.
> "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."
> Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something.
Your comments are snarky, dismissive, shallow and presume bad faith. Rather than engage with curiosity and thoughtfulness, you put words that were never said into the mouths of others, so you ultimately are not adding anything to the conversation. Maybe this is the standard of discourse on Twitter or Reddit, but it doesn't rise to HN's level of discourse.
I'm not going to make a value judgment one way or another here, but I'll just say this -- if you can't explain what you really think without belittling others, people won't think it's because you're smarter than them. They will think it's because you have nothing to say (or you're too lazy to put in the effort into saying something) and you're afraid of that being made obvious.
The entire answer is in that text.
I'm not interested in your list of judgments or your following statement that you won't be making a judgment. I'm not interested in you telling me that you think I belong on Twitter, or your attempt to rely on having been here six years as being an old timer.
You ignored everything I said and we both know why.
Don't waste your time making another set of personal attacks.
This is irony right? Because a guy made some money selling ape drawings there's now a renaissance?
you needed to ask?
> That's totally what happened. We are in a renaissance of artistry, of artists creating meaningful art out of conviction, and making a living.
From the home page of https://www.sound.xyz/, "$2,688,130.20 Earned by artists from fans using Sound Records"
You can debate whether PayPal or cash would be more efficient than using Ethereum here, but this is a new channel for artists to focus on the art and make a living.
I think this would be much more successful without NFTs, cryptocurrencies and all that. It would make it possible for ordinary people to understand the service better, especially when it comes to payment. The involvement of cryptocurrencies is simply a barrier. Scarcity isn't the best incentive either, it's an extrinsic motivation associated with logic and ownership, whereas for music you want an intrinsic motivation associated with self-expression, creativity and social aspects. These NFT platforms are suprisingly bad at presenting a social influence incentive, you would think it would be their bread and butter. Basically you want that and empowerment, with a bit of epic meaning mixed in. You want a creative playground of artists and their audience both feeling that they have an impact. None of this scarcity crap, instant turn off, it's completely on the other side of the spectrum. The point of music and any creative endevour is not the scarcity of the end product, it's sharing it. It's connection. There is no point in ownership. That's not the kind of connection people trully want, it's bragging rights at best.
I think a big part of some of these new projects is that their payment systems are powered by crypto, allowing them to operate completely outside the traditional financial system. To simply say, why not do this without crypto/blockchain, is ignoring a major facet of these systems.
Some of these players may never have been able to secure a bank loan, or one big enough to start their project/service. Or they would never have been able to reach their audience so easily. Or they'd be beholden to a much smaller group of backers.
That's $16 a person a month. That isn't even a movie ticket in most cities.
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> You can debate whether PayPal or cash would be more efficient than using Ethereum here
No you can't. There are individual sales larger than this on PayPal and cash.
This is just a crypto bro trying to sound deep by throwing out numbers and not really thinking about if they're any good
.
> but this is a new channel for artists to focus on the art and make a living.
No it absolutely is not
It's not even a compact disc monthly
Please do the math first next time
Look, maybe the art renaissance is coming soon™ but it sure as hell is not here now, especially relative to the financial one.
I assume this is sarcastic, but to be fair, generative and computer art really is thriving and getting more recognition than it ever has in the past, in part because of recent NFT boom.
[1] https://news.artnet.com/art-world/vera-molnar-venice-biennal...
[2] https://www.sothebys.com/en/digital-catalogues/natively-digi...
We're at a place in some circles where cryptocurrency projects and any subjective value they may provide is preemptively dismissed with prejudice. Ultimately the customer decides what he values. As tech types it is too easy to sit back and claim, "Oh these consumers don't know what they want". Perhaps that is true. Perhaps what we find useful or interesting isn't what interests consumers. If we really know what will satisfy them, then we should provide it.
Knee-jerk condemnations are a bit easier.
They've done a great deal of harm in that period, so I can't see even the current level of mild negative sentiment as sustainable.
Slapping a decentralized sticker on and having a cryptocurrency apparently worked out for them. This is how you successfully differentiate a product.
If something with that utility is so lowly valued, then imagine the true intrinsic value of BTC!
(1) Gambling (including "investing" in speculative non-corporeal assets)
(2) Scams (this includes misattributed art)
(3) Obvious mediocre junk created to cash in on a fad
I'm sure you can dig and find a couple of examples. The problem is that you have to dig. BBSes, the Internet, and the WWW protocol were instantly useful. One did not have to dig at all to find dozens to hundreds of legitimate use cases. We are in year 14 of cryptocurrency and you have to dig to find anything that is not a scam or crap.
For example here is the flagship of the NFT craze:
It speaks for itself.
But there must be dozens of other approaches to doing cryptocurrencies in a sane and safe manner. E.g., in all this crazy buzz, has anyone in this space tried to do an updated version of digicash? That was a digital payment system created by one of the grandfathers of modern crypto. I've never heard a counterargument to its fundamentals-- unlike Bitcoin, you got your cashlike properties of anonymity wrt the issuing back through the use of blinded signatures. And I'm pretty sure it could also scale much better than blockchain-based stuff. It just pre-dated ecommerce so it didn't have a market.
There must be dozens of other non-blockchain approaches that also route around all the scaling problems of trying to do a blockchain or decentralized approach.
I mean, even in the realm of anonymous messaging researchers like Len Sassman came up with remailers that could make use of some number of centralized servers without relying on them to play nice for the anonymity properties. Hell, Moxie even went full centralized and still gets what I think a lot of commenters on HN would have to admit are decent privacy properties. Or, at least better privacy options than you'd get with doing transactions through Bitcoin.
Are there equivalent non-blockchain, non-decentralization-zealotry cryptocurrency experiments going on right now in this same space? If so, I'd love to know about them.
If not, then it sure does look like a bunch of people either copy/pasted Bitcoin's hashcash hack or put an experimental stop-gap in there to surf atop this ocean of cash that seems to only chase this incredibly small niche.
This allows larger numbers of disparate parties to coordinate on them for financial and social interaction. I would not rely heavily on a token distributed on a centralized digicash like system but I would rely on a token my company issues on Ethereum, because I know any one receiving the tokens would still be able to access them years from now and that the infrastructure of compatible software, both client-side and blockchain-based, will only grow over time.
No, this is extremely wrong. I would encourage you to look into the rather large graveyard of cryptocurrencies that collapsed and are now worthless. A digital cash platform will shut down when it's not profitable and nobody wants to use it anymore, the exact same thing is true of any cryptocurrency.
It also seems really bad to me that this view is becoming more common, that's it's actually a good thing that BTC and ETH are getting "too big to fail" despite the flaws in them being relatively well known at this point. It's like we've come full circle...
None of those are major cryptocurrencies, and the blockchains of many of those which are now effectively worthless continue to exist in a handful of nodes around the world, showing the resilience of this enterprise structure.
>>A digital cash platform will shut down when it's not profitable and nobody wants to use it anymore, the exact same thing is true of any cryptocurrency.
No, a blockchain is inherently far more widely distributed in its infrastructure providers and datastores, and is therefore far less likely to disappear as a trusted database for shared operations like a token ledger.
>>that's it's actually a good thing that BTC and ETH are getting "too big to fail"
In this case they are too big to fail on their own, not too big for society to allow them to fail, which is an entirely different concept, and only superficially similar. It is a good thing for the world at large when a shared ledger becomes increasingly robust to failure due to its own structure becoming more resilient. This makes for a more reliable platform for financial and social interaction.
Sure, but this is circular logic. They're not major anymore because they're dead.
>and the blockchains of many of those which are now effectively worthless continue to exist in a handful of nodes around the world, showing the resilience of this enterprise structure.
Yeah and I still keep copies of old Word 95 documents around, so if we're going by only "time spent existing" then the data structure used in Word 95 documents is much better and more resilient than blockchains. Of course that's a silly way to look at things.
>a blockchain is inherently far more widely distributed in its infrastructure providers and datastores
This is not even remotely close to being true. Nothing about blockchains makes them inherently more distributed, you can very easily deploy a blockchain on only one machine and keep it that way. The communities around them might be more distributed but that's a different discussion that isn't really related to blockchains.
>In this case they are too big to fail on their own, not too big for society to allow them to fail
I'm sorry I don't understand what the difference is. The definition of success here is "society sees it as useful" so the mode of failure is the same either way.
>It is a good thing for the world at large when a shared ledger becomes increasingly robust to failure due to its own structure becoming more resilient. This makes for a more reliable platform for financial and social interaction.
Sure, I can agree with that, but these statements have nothing to do with blockchains or cryptocurrency at all. You could say the same thing about a digital cash becoming more robust.
There may be subjective value, but there is also fraud and exploitation. Calling it out is not wrong. I would be very interested in a16z honestly writing about the actual problems in this industry, how are they combatting them, but hype is the only language they know. They pretend that NFTs or games with token economies are utopias, because an utopia is easy to sell. They are very far from an utopia, in fact a lot of nasty things are going on with them.
Social media as mentioned above is another good example. I don't personally see the value in something like FB, but I don't generalize or condemn social media broadly. If others want to realize value there, fine. There are also groups calling out the perceived "evils" of FB, Instagram and others. They'll go as far as blaming teen suicide on social media.
One person's utopia is another's hell.
Imagine looking at FB's market valuation and claiming, "There's no real value as I define it, therefore FB is worthless!". Would love to see what this person builds and how the market reacts to their personal values. Innovation, actions, speak so much louder than some of HN's condemnations.
That's totally what happened. We are in a renaissance of artistry, of artists creating meaningful art out of conviction, and making a living.
"innovation in the space is only accelerating"
They mispelled infinite exploitation of people who are greedy or desperate to believe in something. A common mistake. Pushing ticking timebombs on people as investment and fanning the hype machine, if not outright manipulating the markets can be called innovation, but innovation should involve societal gain too.
Let me share an example of actual innovation. Imagine if you will a database technology that allows encrypted data to be searched and the server to be untrusted, not having the ability to compromise the data regardless of how curious or malicious the server is. This is a very complicated problem, but it would allow for companies with services like Facebook to not have access to your data, unless you shared it, while still being able to operate the service. You would still have to trust third parties or the government to store your encryption keys, and perhaps to ensure the freshness of your data, there is no such thing as zero trust, but we wouldn't have to trust as many parties. We could create a trust infrastructure every new service can benefit from.
This kind of technology would compromise the business model of many companies, but isn't it the goal of Web 3.0 to give ordinary people more control over their lives, their data? I suspect the actual goal of it is to create a use for cryptocurrencies, or maybe find another avenue for growth and exploitation. Don't get me wrong, make as much money as you can, but do something useful. Do something people actually want or need. Don't just wantonly and reclessly exploit them. Create some damn value, something your mama would be proud of.