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Re:On anti-crypto toxicity by egeozcan on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @06:26AM (#31094860)
You cannot solve contract/legal problems and wrong transactions through decentralization. You can't also make a democratic system act on every conflict. You assign a central authority to act on them and you select that authority through a democratic process, which is what we already have.

- I want to have a beer!

- ok, scan this QR, and accept the transaction

- there you go!

- thank you, here are your 5 beers

- oh, did I just pay for 5? I wanted 1! can you refund me and take these back?

- no can do! pretty sure you said 5!

You can convince the 51% to cancel the transaction or you can call the police. What would you do?

Bitcoin may fix some friction issues if it's integrated into the current financial system, but it'd then just be a very small cog in a giant machine.

You may not agree, it may also be that you do not want to agree, and it's ok.

Now if you start calling people toxic because they state what's obvious for them, you can never get a proper discussion. It's also a little red flag that should make you question if you are in a cult.

Re:On anti-crypto toxicity by Crosseye_Jack on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @06:57AM (#31095080)
Same could be said about paying in cash. Order a beer, hand over a 20 expecting change, bartender gives you 5 beers and no change. In that case you can convince the bartender (who allready said no can do) or call the police (though it might be a civil issue rather than criminal, so calling the cops won't produce any results and you will have to take it up with them via the civil court system).

BUt I get your point, I used some automated "pay by crypto" checkout system a few months ago, their automated system never picked up the transaction even though the coins where in their wallet, they first blamed me and said they would refund if I paid the fee's which were not in a coin I had on hand so had to do some giggling about to get this small amount (was like < $1 of coins so it was easier to just pay this fee than it was to complain), then after they recieved this fee they said they would return the funds minus 8% as that 8% was their "handling fee".

NOW they did return all the funds I transfered so maybe that 2nd email was just a canned message but it was still a jab to the gut them saying "yeah, our system messed up and we want you to pay to fix it".

Re:On anti-crypto toxicity by soco on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @10:21AM (#31097367)
On the other hand, I had over time a few credit card disputes, and the existing system worked just fine.
Re:On anti-crypto toxicity by Crosseye_Jack on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @10:57AM (#31097881)
My bank handles card disputes very well imo. Basically I can start the dispute via my banking app and based on your past history the bank will front you the refund while they wait out the dispute.

Things like that happen when you have an intermediate handling the transaction, and personally for my day to day transactions I'm happy with using the existing banking system

BUT the existing system does have flaws in my opinion. For one example, sex workers, banks do not like touching that subject. Crypto removes the gatekeepers to electronic payment transfers, well it does until you want to convert it back to fiat and your crypto gets blacklisted by the exchanges. But me personally, I don't think crypto is the answer, but kicking banks into understanding that adults are adults and don't need banks holding the reins.

(Granted payments in the adult industry are some of the most charged back which becomes a pain for payment providers).

Re:On anti-crypto toxicity by soco on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @12:16PM (#31099190)
US experiences come to me like from an alien world, most of the time. Zoning laws messing with cafes, banks kicking sex workers, and this is only from the last 5 minutes HN reads...

And back to the topic: yes banks deserve some stronger kicks and that can be achieved only through politics (aka, getting involved). Cryptids only shuffle the burden around a bit.

Re:On anti-crypto toxicity by telomero22 on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @06:38AM (#31094951)
What kind of example is this?

Try that with a credit card transaction and you'll get kicked out for ordering 5 beers and only trying to pay 1. :D

Re:On anti-crypto toxicity by oauea on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @08:23AM (#31095824)
Updated that script for you:

- I want to have a beer!

- ok, scan this QR, and accept the transaction

- there you go!

- thank you, here are your 5 beers

- oh, did I just pay for 5? I wanted 1! can you refund me and take these back?

- sure! can I see your QR code?

- there you go!

- thank you, here is your 1 beer and refund

Note that I'm totally burnt on bitcoin for practical reasons, but your example is just silly.

Re:On anti-crypto toxicity by egeozcan on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @08:31AM (#31095907)
Maybe you shouldn't worry too much about the actual example?

It's just a conflict to make the point stand, we are not discussing my creative writing here, so don't hurt my feelings for no reason please! :)

Re:On anti-crypto toxicity by stavros on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @06:44AM (#31095001)
How is this different from cash?
Re:On anti-crypto toxicity by egeozcan on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @06:54AM (#31095061)
I wasn't specifically giving a btc example, qr code can also be apple pay or anything like that.

It's just that in the case of btc, there's no central authority to cancel the transaction. You need a court order to force the bar to manually send the money back to you. The bank cannot freeze the funds. Enforcement is crippled. If this is not a reputable business (unlikely for a bar and very unlikely for a small sum like that but bear with me), it's way more likely to lose your money.

This is one of the reasons why money transactions are hard and costly. You cannot pretend that a blockchain fixes all that.

Re:On anti-crypto toxicity by stavros on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @06:59AM (#31095093)
Yes but all these things are features to me. I like cash for small purchases, and I like, say, Monero for the same reasons.

If I lose 50 € to some unscrupulous merchant, that's worth it to not have to ask the bank for permission for and tell them about every transaction.

Re:On anti-crypto toxicity by Broken_Hippo on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @07:17AM (#31095231)
If I lose 50 € to some unscrupulous merchant, that's worth it to not have to ask the bank for permission for and tell them about every transaction.

in other words, you aren't poor enough for the loss of 50 € to mean that you are going to have less food this month and won't be late on your rent because of it.

Re:On anti-crypto toxicity by stavros on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @07:18AM (#31095253)
Ah yes, banks, the champions of the poor man.
Re:On anti-crypto toxicity by Broken_Hippo on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @07:28AM (#31095332)
It isn't that banks are looking out for poor people. That should be obvious.

But poor people do use banking services and in both countries I've lived in (US and Norway), there are built in consumer protections. They aren't perfect, but they are stronger than you get with crypto. You can often resolve a payment issue, for example. FDIC protection in the US covers most folks (most folks don't save more than whatever the limit is now).

And this protection, even if imperfect, helps folks have a little more stability in their lives.

Re:On anti-crypto toxicity by stavros on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @07:30AM (#31095344)
But cryptocurrency is the same as with cash. Yes, we need to teach people that they shouldn't send cryptocurrency to some shady "investment" company, just as they shouldn't give cash to a guy in a van promising them returns, but the risk profile is exactly the same as with cash, which people have been using successfully for centuries.
Re:On anti-crypto toxicity by danaris on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @09:11AM (#31096371)
The risk profile is, currently, not the same as with cash, for the reasons some people further up the thread mentioned (no or nebulous ability to freeze/seize assets of bad actors).

To the extent that the risk profile is or will become (with expanding regulations) the same as with cash, cryptocurrencies provide no meaningful improvement over cash, but have significant drawbacks.

So why should we take all this effort to get to "just like cash, but with extra steps"?

Re:On anti-crypto toxicity by stavros on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @09:21AM (#31096525)
Because it's cash you can easily carry with you, even if you have millions, you can send to anyone anywhere in the world instantly, they're much more difficult to steal if you have a cheap hardware wallet, etc etc. They have many more advantages.
Re:On anti-crypto toxicity by egeozcan on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @07:18AM (#31095244)
These are all features as long as you live in a world where there is no bad faith, no misunderstandings, no drama of any sorts.

In this world however, disputed transactions may even be more than half, depending on the industry. You can't approach something that ignores this as a serious financial tool.

Re:On anti-crypto toxicity by stavros on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @07:21AM (#31095281)
I don't use cryptocurrency as a replacement for a credit card, I use it as a replacement for cash. Banks aren't risk-free either, it's a lower probability of problems for a much more devastating impact.

Compare a frozen bank account to a fraudulent transaction you can't revert. Sure, the latter is more frequent, but the former is devastating.

Re:On anti-crypto toxicity by ekianjo on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @07:00AM (#31095098)
> The bank cannot freeze the funds

That's a feature, not a bug.

Re:On anti-crypto toxicity by anhner on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @08:10AM (#31095714)
...that's what he was saying? What do we need crypto for if it has the same drawbacks as cash? (and also others on the side, like huge fees)
Re:On anti-crypto toxicity by Andrew_nenakhov on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @06:45AM (#31095005)
No crypto software I know makes a transaction based on a QR code scan. It always shows you the address, and then you have to enter the total in the check and then complete the transaction. If you paid 5x more than was asked, have your 5 beers.