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Re:What Is at Stake in Ukraine by lkrubner on Friday April 15, 2022 @07:44AM (#31039060)
In the early years, some of Putin's speeches almost seemed liberal, and yet now, looking back, it is possible to see the imperial signature in his speeches, in particular, how his logic might lead to the erasure of an entire people. He initially emphasized a kind of multiculturalism, but now it seems to be the multiculturalism of an all-conquering empire, the kind of multiculturalism we sort of saw with the Roman Empire, not a multiculturalism that respects the independence of others, but a multiculturalism that feels that all cultures are fungible enough that the army will eventually bring all of them under control.

Still, it is possible that Putin really was, at one point, a bit more sympathetic to a multicultural point of view. It's possible that he's gone insane over the last 10 years. Consider how he sounded in 2012:

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Putin’s final major address as prime minister to parliament in April 2012 hammered home this point – the dangers of dividing and thus destroying. It came in the form of an answer to a suggestion from a member of the Russian Duma that the preamble to the Russian constitution be changed from beginning with “We the multinational people [narod] of Russia,” to “We the [ethnic] Russian [russkiy] people and the people who have joined with it.” Putin retorted:

Do you understand what we would do [if we did that]? Part of our society would consist of first class people and part would be second class. We must not do that if you and I want to have a strong single [yedinaya] nation, a single people [narod], if we want each person who lives on the territory of the country to feel that this is their homeland, and that there is no other homeland, nor can there be one. And if we want each person to feel like that, then we have to be equal. This is the principle question. The fact that the [ethnic] Russian [russkiy] people are – without a doubt – the backbone, the fundament, the cement of the multinational Russian [rossiyskiy] people cannot be questioned….But to divide everyone up into first, second, third categories, you know, this is a very dangerous path. You and I, all of us, must not do this.

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See more details here:

https://demodexio.substack.com/p/mr-putin-operative-in-the-k...

Re:What Is at Stake in Ukraine by agapon on Friday April 15, 2022 @08:20AM (#31039344)
I just want to point out that the bloodbath in Chechnia and the 2008 "military operation" in Georgia happened much earlier than 2012.

What changed is that they became much more open about their real goals. Previously, they did their thing, perhaps slightly more subtly, while bullshitting the world.

Re:What Is at Stake in Ukraine by yobbo on Friday April 15, 2022 @08:55AM (#31039648)
The elite in russia becomes wealthy by extracting natural resources from the vast territories of the russian federation's member republics. They need the distant republics and ethnic minorities to stay poor, dependent, and deferential to moscow. The danger putin would see in "dividing into categories" is ethnic pride (in anything but russian ethnicity), uprisings, and "colour revolutions".
Re:What Is at Stake in Ukraine by hdjjhhvvhga on Friday April 15, 2022 @08:17AM (#31039316)
The decisive point is who is in control. Putin is happy with multiculturalism of current Belarus and Chechnya, and of the Ukraine with Yanukovych.
Re:What Is at Stake in Ukraine by sofixa on Friday April 15, 2022 @10:38AM (#31040763)
How is Belarus multicultural?

Chechnya and the other Caucasian republics are miniscule, and Putin and the Putin-sanctioned dictators there don't care about culture.

Re:What Is at Stake in Ukraine by hdjjhhvvhga on Friday April 15, 2022 @11:33AM (#31041364)
What I mean is that in Putin's view the culture of Russia can coexist with the culture of Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia etc. as long as he is in control.
Re:What Is at Stake in Ukraine by jotm on Friday April 15, 2022 @08:37AM (#31039492)
I think the lesson is to never have one small group in power for more than a decade. Which is a major part of why elections and term limits exist.

Putin may well have been more open minded, he just got pissy lately and he has a lot of power. One tantrum means thousands die.

Why would anyone with half a brain allow that? Most people just want to live and work.

Re:What Is at Stake in Ukraine by zaphirplane on Friday April 15, 2022 @08:32AM (#31039443)
OMG This isn’t a war of expansion and colonization

This is about encirclement, nato, missiles on the border, warm water access

No value judgment in the right or wrong of it

Re:What Is at Stake in Ukraine by Cthulhu_ on Friday April 15, 2022 @08:45AM (#31039564)
Eh? They invaded a neighbouring sovereign country and murdered tens of thousands of civilians, what do you mean "no value judgment in the right or wrong of it"?

I mean if the people in eastern Ukraine or Crimea WANTED to join Russia, there's democratic and peaceful ways to go about it. If Russia wanted access to the Black Sea, there's peaceful ways to go about it, like trade and freedom of commerce agreements like Europe has.

Re:What Is at Stake in Ukraine by fock on Friday April 15, 2022 @09:26AM (#31039977)
> I mean if the people in eastern Ukraine or Crimea WANTED to join Russia, there's democratic and peaceful ways to go about it.

You remember Zelensky was elected on the narrative he'd bring peace. For that there was Minsk which was not good and giving in to force, but well, implementing it would have been a hell of a lot better than what's happening now. Yet, he wasn't able to achieve that? Maybe Ukraine isn't the center of democracy the State Department made it into the past 2 months.

Re:What Is at Stake in Ukraine by megous on Friday April 15, 2022 @09:49AM (#31040201)
So why Minsk agreements failed? There seems to have been a major decrease in ceasefire violations per OSCE during COVID years (to 1/3rd). So it seems a bit weird for Russia to escalate now, if calming the situation down was the Russian overall goal. And certainly if Russian so care about people's lives, orders of magnitude more are dying now than in the last few years.
Re:What Is at Stake in Ukraine by mynameisvlad on Friday April 15, 2022 @10:04AM (#31040383)
Zelensky can't possibly control what another country does, how is it his fault that another country unilaterally decided to invade theirs?

This is just straight up victim blaming.

Re:What Is at Stake in Ukraine by federoccco on Friday April 15, 2022 @05:48PM (#31046288)
Under Zelenskiy situation in Donbas was de-escalating. Implementation of Minsk agreement the way Russia wanted it to happen was not on his agenda nor it was supported by majority of Ukrainian electorate. Ukraine is a democracy, whether you like it or not.
Re:What Is at Stake in Ukraine by jacquesm on Friday April 15, 2022 @09:52AM (#31040234)
I don't think Ukraine got a say in the yes/no decision for this invasion. Apparently the only person that got to influence it was Xi but he somehow forgot to pass on the facts to the relevant parties.
Re:What Is at Stake in Ukraine by zaphirplane on Friday April 15, 2022 @09:23AM (#31039937)
I am not commenting on the right or wrong of the war, addressing the motivation
Re:What Is at Stake in Ukraine by sofixa on Friday April 15, 2022 @10:36AM (#31040750)
> encirclement,

A hostile Ukraine, or a conquered Ukraine, only bring more enemies on Russia's borders.

> nato,

> missiles on the border

What missiles? There's already Poland, Baltics, Turkey, Romania that can be used for missile bases.

> warm water access

That's the bullshitiest one of the bullshit list - first, Russia already controls Sevastopol, and before the occupation of Crimea, it had a joint lease on it. And of course, it has hundreds of kilometres of Black Sea coastline to the east of Crimea, including the sizable port and naval base of Novorosiisk.

Russia is providing enough fake excuses ( Ukraine isn't a real nation, Nazis) as it is, no need to add even faker ones for them.

Re:What Is at Stake in Ukraine by unionpivo on Friday April 15, 2022 @07:52PM (#31047420)
Bullshit. They state quite clearly that they want to annex part or even whole of Ukraine.

Sure what you say may have played the role also. But Putin wants "glory days" of SU back. That's why he continuously tried to expand Russia (and Russian influence) since he came into power.

It's about him being a power broker on international scale and not another has been dictator of 3rd world country.

Nato was just used as an excuse. Because of the submarines and ballistic missiles, It doesn't matters where weapons are.

And nothing excuses them for what we are seeing what is happening on the ground.

Re:What Is at Stake in Ukraine by jotm on Friday April 15, 2022 @08:39AM (#31039504)
Why would you willingly choose to believe a dictator?
Re:What Is at Stake in Ukraine by zaphirplane on Friday April 15, 2022 @09:57AM (#31040288)
The premise of the question is not correct