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Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by mschuster91 on Thursday April 14, 2022 @09:59AM (#31027125)
> Now it's more common to try to get 'bad' platforms dehosted altogether (e.g. Parler/Gab)

Well, no company can be forced to host antisemitism, holocaust denial and similar content [1] - most companies don't even want to host such content, simply because of how despised (or, in the case of Europe, illegal) it is.

[1] https://fortune.com/2020/11/13/parler-extremism-hate-conspir...

Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by javajosh on Thursday April 14, 2022 @10:43AM (#31027655)
>most companies don't even want to host such content, simply because of how despised ... it is

I don't think that's true because the frequency of bad ideas is evenly distributed. I'm sure there are many company owners that have those bad ideas and want to host them.

These ideas get suppressed because of societal norms. The problem here is when you disagree with the norm. I'm personally fine with making holocaust denial illegal, but it would be dishonest of me to claim that wasn't an authoritarian move, and that violates another, arguably more important norm! So we split the difference, and leave it up to individual choice. But that solution fractured when the internet split our norms into a thousand pieces, and has totally failed with the mainstream adoption of Trump and woke/cancel culture norms (both of which violate other, more important norms).

Frankly its terrible to feel like you're 'losing' people to bad ideas, and allowing communities to form around bad ideas accelerates the loss. We intuitively understand that some bad ideas are bad enough to lead to war, and vast human suffering. And so we come back to a justification for limited authoritarianism, because war is even worse than that.

Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by Mezzie on Thursday April 14, 2022 @10:27AM (#31027489)
I am also an American who disagrees with those European laws, though I understand them and why they came to pass. It's one of the difficulties of the issue: Free speech used to be more of a national problem, now it's larger, and, as you mentioned, international law and culture add even more variables to consider.

I understand the desire to abide by European standards, because the Holocaust in particular was so horrific, but there are countries that have laws against things like promoting homosexuality, so clearly legality can't be the only moral arbiter here because the laws are a.) contradictory and b.) we recognize authoritarian governments make oppressive laws and we shouldn't comply with them. Which means we need another standard, one that defines Holocaust denial as impermissible but discussions of being gay as fine.

I don't think anybody should HAVE to host holocaust denial, but if somebody does, they shouldn't be attacked for it. (And 'attacked' meaning attempts made to take down the content/sue facetiously/DDOSing, etc. Nothing stopping people from mocking the host or pulling their money).

I'm also wary of things like 'hosting anti-semitism' as a justification, because what is considered anti-semitic varies (like most kinds of bigotry). Is it anti-semitic to criticize the government of Israel? What about the gender issues in Ultra-Orthodox communities? (I'm not Jewish, but I feel the same way about groups that I am a part of: I might not LIKE being called a dyke, seeing somebody say all homosexuals are depraved degenerates, etc. but that's not the same as calling for my murder or trying to get me fired.)

Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by mschuster91 on Thursday April 14, 2022 @11:14AM (#31028015)
> Which means we need another standard, one that defines Holocaust denial as impermissible but discussions of being gay as fine.

We actually have, and that is the Declaration of Human Rights.

Holocaust denial denies the very thing why this Declaration was formulated and accepted by all civilized nations. Discriminating against gay people violates Articles 1-3 of the Declaration.

The problem is that the US, its constitution being way older than the Declaration, has a far wider understanding of "free speech" and the responsibilities associated with it.

Re:Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private by Mezzie on Thursday April 14, 2022 @11:33AM (#31028280)
I mean, if we got every internet company to agree and had some kind of public standards and the ability to vote or otherwise talk through borderline issues, I'd be fine with that as a solution, even as somebody who does hold the US view of free speech.

The problem is that there's no way companies are going to leave money on the table or authoritarian governments are going to agree to that, so then you're right back to the two different set of standards where companies proclaim in the EU/US/etc. that they follow content moderation according to the DHR while letting some countries erase gay people and women, and if that happens, their claim to any kind of moral stand or objectivity can't be taken seriously.

Frankly, I think this issue is going to require some VERY large changes to our systems to deal with, but first we have to go through the panic period where the people in power realized they fucked up and try to save the system that serves them well. I'm of the opinion our information expansion over the last 15 or so years is as monumental as the invention of writing or possibly even just the printing press. Social upheaval is going to follow, and until we establish new systems, it's hard to know how to use those systems to combat this problem.

For example, I think the Constitution is outdated and we should rewrite it.