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Re:What software engineers can learn from the rapid collapse... by belval on Thursday April 07, 2022 @09:59PM (#30952505)
This echos my experience at a $100M startup that I worked for and that ultimately failed.

HR would tell us we were extraordinary, we would have world-class catering for lunch every day, and yet we had no customers, no contracts, and no money except the investors'.

It was a sobering realisation on the damage that can happen when you are submerged in toxic positivity. You forget that companies still need to earn actual money, that it's not a party every day.

Re:What software engineers can learn from the rapid collapse... by brian_cunnie on Friday April 08, 2022 @09:02AM (#30956310)
> we would have world-class catering for lunch every day

I'd like to point out that this is not the case for every Silicon Valley start-up: the three start-ups I worked at (CollabNet, Aeluros, Ardatech) were incredibly frugal with money (exception: salaries were competitive).

At one of the companies, the CEO and I took a trip to Safeway to buy soft drinks for customers. When we got back, I walked around the office telling everyone the soft drinks were _not_ for them, only for customers.

At another company, I had to make a compelling presentation to the CTO to buy a $1.5k printer. "The Linux workstations need a PostScript printer!" We bought the printer, but he didn't like parting with the money.

Being frugal doesn't guarantee success: my CollabNet stock was washed out in later rounds, Aeluros had a fair-to-middling exit to Broadcom, and Ardatech had a good exit to Google. But it's good to keep an eye on the money.

Re:What software engineers can learn from the rapid collapse... by BigJono on Friday April 08, 2022 @09:43AM (#30956682)
That sounds like way too far in the other direction at both places. Stuff like drinks and printers are basically noise compared to engineering payroll when you're paying people $250k a year.

The lesson should be buy whatever the hell people want, just stop buying people until you need them. They're the expensive bit.

3 great devs can do about the same work as like 30 average ones. People massively underestimate communication overhead. As soon as you lose the 'startup feel', you lose the speed, and it's gone for good. The transition is probably inevitable, but there's a threshold of revenue you have to reach before you make it. If you don't reach it, you're cactus.

150 devs and 50 sales people to generate $600k yearly revenue is laughable.

Re:What software engineers can learn from the rapid collapse... by brian_cunnie on Friday April 08, 2022 @10:56AM (#30957762)
> The lesson should be buy whatever the hell people want, just stop buying people until you need them. They're the expensive bit.

Absolutely. We were frugal, but not to the point of self-sabotage. Our biggest expense was payroll, followed by the Cadence/Synopsys EDA software licenses.

So, for example, no catered lunches or breakfasts, but if there was a customer or investor dinner, it would be expensed.

We had good health insurance, but we didn't have gym memberships or (gasp!) an onsite gym.

The workstations were powerful, but we shaved costs by buying "gamer rigs" instead of the more expensive "engineer workstations". We bought prosumer equipment (Netgear) instead of enterprise equipment (Cisco).

If someone needed, say, a Wacom tablet to accommodate a wrist injury, we made that happen.

We had a well-stocked lab, but some of the electrostatic benches we got at a good price secondhand.

Our office was near the train station to accommodate the engineers who commuted from the city, but it wasn't expensive space (all glass & chrome); it was a "B" office. We shared a bathroom with the other tenants. It was a little run-down, but it was clean.

We didn't have offices or cubes, just desks, and the CEO & President sat next to each other in the big room we all shared.

Re:What software engineers can learn from the rapid collapse... by aaaaaaaaata on Friday April 08, 2022 @06:49PM (#30963451)
Netgear and Cisco are kind of a security shit-show, but kudos in principle.
Re:What software engineers can learn from the rapid collapse... by userulluipeste on Friday April 08, 2022 @10:17AM (#30957051)
"just stop buying people until you need them. They're the expensive bit."

If only they could be bought that easy right when you'd need them. At least in a corporation, the HR will tell you "50 engineers? That's going to take X monts, judging from the hiring rate we had so far."

Re:What software engineers can learn from the rapid collapse... by im_down_w_otp on Thursday April 07, 2022 @10:03PM (#30952536)
How on Earth did the company raise so much money with so few milestones of any kind being achieved?
Re:What software engineers can learn from the rapid collapse... by JumpCrisscross on Thursday April 07, 2022 @11:43PM (#30953113)
> How on Earth did the company raise so much money with so few milestones of any kind being achieved?

Fast pitched itself as taking the prudent path compared with e.g. Bolt. The latter went for big clients first. Fast started with small businesses.

There were clearly other issues. But the closing era of cheap capital favoured the bold, and Bolt’s seizure of the fertile low grounds cut off Fast from its growth. Despite Fast taking the orthodox path.

Re:What software engineers can learn from the rapid collapse... by b20000 on Friday April 08, 2022 @12:09AM (#30953249)
this doesn't answer the question at all, it's just a bunch of bullshit words strung together. we never raised any money, and we had more to show than Fast although we were in a completely different industry. this goes to show that all that matters is knowing people, it doesn't actually matter whether you have a real business and have achieved anything at all.
Re:What software engineers can learn from the rapid collapse... by enra on Friday April 08, 2022 @01:28AM (#30953615)
VCs sometimes follow "hot" companies. Companies become hot when several VCs think they are hot for whatever reason. When the company is hot and gets offers, other VCs will rush to give them more offers and at that point you might not even need a deck or any metrics anymore. The startup can then bid those offers against each and can end up raising even more they initially were trying to.

Fast did great job hyping the company on Twitter, likely the founder also was a good storyteller. The old adage is that you raise with a story, team or traction. Sometimes the story actually pans out, like with YC Airbnb is often an example of company that struggled for a long time in the beginning and no-one could really predict how big they could become.

Re:What software engineers can learn from the rapid collapse... by b20000 on Friday April 08, 2022 @01:50AM (#30953725)
traction doesn’t matter. or we would have raised. story and team maybe. i think that VCs buy into a certain type of person. maybe a younger version of themselves. somebody they want or wanted to be. that rules out anyone who is nerdy or weird. and they like to go to parties to hear what others are investing in and then do the same.
Re:What software engineers can learn from the rapid collapse... by hef19898 on Friday April 08, 2022 @03:06AM (#30954143)
I'm all in if a founder can "sell" a company to raise money. It becomes a problem once people believe their own hype, so.
Re:What software engineers can learn from the rapid collapse... by JumpCrisscross on Friday April 08, 2022 @05:20AM (#30954947)
> we never raised any money

Who? (Also, given an open market, as was the case when the Amazon patent expired in 2017, the company fundraises to scale will beat its more timid competitor. This is basic strategy.)

If you were in a different industry…great execution in the wrong industry is as good as a Ferrari in a swamp.

> all that matters is knowing people

Sounds like you’ve been through some shit. I’m sorry for that.

The point I was making, summarily, is that Bolt ate Fast’s lunch. It went straight for the big customers. Fast wanted to grow towards them incrementally. In this story, if anyone had a fundraising connections advantage, it was Fast—they were Stripe backed. Bolt outmanoeuvred them (and was lucky).

This is unorthodox strategy. Fast played it conservatively. Bolt swung for the fences. Curiously, Bolt landed the home run.

Re:What software engineers can learn from the rapid collapse... by lupire on Friday April 08, 2022 @08:29AM (#30956060)
FAST wasted $100M on nothing. That's not conservative.
Re:What software engineers can learn from the rapid collapse... by samhw on Friday April 08, 2022 @11:05AM (#30957965)
I don't know why on earth this is downvoted. You're 100% correct and I'm bewildered that this 'conservative' trope is prevailing in the thread. Both companies spent functionally the same amount of money, and both maximised different terms of the [customer count]*[customer revenue] equation.

Fast made what was manifestly the wrong decision, both in hindsight and in foresight (I'm happy to post my WhatsApp screencaps from a year and a half ago when I was exploring starting a co in that space). It's not possible to build a hands-off 'platform' like Stripe in that space - integrations are complex, and so integrating a large number of small clients predictably bogged them down till they ran out of money.

(That's not the only reason, I'm sure. It was also a shitty implementation of one-click checkout: most saliently, it wasn't one click. Anyone who actually tried Fast at the time - and I & my prospective cofounder shared the few tiny client websites either of us found like they were rare gems - could see that it was a terrible implementation, in a space where UX is literally the entire game. Many actually did, e.g. this guy from back then: https://chrisfrantz.com/checking-in-on-fast/)

Re:What software engineers can learn from the rapid collapse... by b20000 on Friday April 08, 2022 @10:17AM (#30957043)
you can build a great business in any industry. VCs think this is limited to a handful of industries which they happen to think are hot. because of that thinking many good deals are lost.

maybe Bolt knew a couple of things Fast did not.

Re:What software engineers can learn from the rapid collapse... by jokethrowaway on Saturday April 09, 2022 @05:08AM (#30966397)
Going for bigger clients is the prudent path. Small clients require far more initial investments and the payoff will be much later.

We failed to raise money exactly because we had a bunch of small clients and not enough revenue. It was a prudent decision for the potential investors - but the main failure on our side was not to network enough with our current investors in order to get another friendly round of investment.

We had a competitor that was doing exactly the same thing (with worse metrics) that raised several millions a few months later, so it wasn't too far fetched.

VCs invest in a lot of baseless crap - sometimes the crap turns into gold and sometimes in order to be the chosen crap you need to know the right people.

Re:What software engineers can learn from the rapid collapse... by tuyiown on Friday April 08, 2022 @04:05AM (#30954515)
Way too much VC money is not driven by business analysis, and influenced by FOMO, especially in big names circles. It's totally irresponsible.
Re:What software engineers can learn from the rapid collapse... by nowherebeen on Friday April 08, 2022 @09:02AM (#30956305)
I think a lot of egos are running the VC business than actual investment analyst.
Re:What software engineers can learn from the rapid collapse... by belval on Thursday April 07, 2022 @10:19PM (#30952629)
A well known name was attached and it was at the peak of the AI craze.
Re:What software engineers can learn from the rapid collapse... by im_down_w_otp on Thursday April 07, 2022 @11:02PM (#30952899)
Ah, celebrity investing. Of course, of course.
Re:What software engineers can learn from the rapid collapse... by sgerenser on Friday April 08, 2022 @12:49PM (#30959486)
Look at Theranos. That con lasted over 10 years and was valued at billions yet they never managed to actually DO anything.
Re:What software engineers can learn from the rapid collapse... by john_moscow on Friday April 08, 2022 @12:06AM (#30953232)
Well, they don't. The toxic positivity is the product and the investors are the customers.