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Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by lobochrome on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @08:29AM (#30918140)
They sold the company to new owners on Friday who then tried to liquidate it. Gazprom Germania is the counterpart to Gas dealers and utilities. It then has an intra-company agreement with Gazprom Russia.

If they had liquidated, those contracts would have been gone and the Gas dealers & utilities would have had to renegotiate new contracts with Gazprom Russia. This would have allowed them to require payments in Rubles instead of Euros.

Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by tazjin on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @08:49AM (#30918299)
From what I've read, the contracts between Gazprom Germany and Gazprom Export (on the Russian side) do not have a fixed settlement currency.

> This would have allowed them to require payments in Rubles instead of Euros

"allowed" is a funny word - this situation is way past a point where cross-border contracts on either side hold any legal value. How are you going to hold anyone accountable for breach of contract?

Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by tedivm on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @09:09AM (#30918490)
Can you back that up with a source? It's the opposite of what basically everyone has been saying and I can't find anything that even hints that there isn't a fixed settlement currency in their contracts. Russia has been trying to push this issue for weeks, while Germany and others are refusing to pay in anything but euros.
Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by tazjin on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @09:28AM (#30918701)
So most of this stuff is not public, so there is no single source to point you to, but from what people have puzzled together on various forums the structure is approximately this (corrections welcome):

ПАО Gazprom (the _actual_ Gazprom; ПАО is a Russian joint-stock company) owns another Russian company (Gazprom Export OOO; OOO is a Russian LLC), which in turn owned Gazprom Germania GmbH (GmbH is a German LLC).

ПАО Gazprom sold gas to Gazprom Export, which in turn sold gas to Gazprom Germania, which in turn sells the gas to the actual European companies.

The change in Russian law which switches the currency to rubles affects the transactions between Gazprom Export OOO and Gazprom Germania GmbH (which were previously both owned by Russia), which made the settlement an "internal" affair of Gazprom for German exports.

(This stuff is fairly well established and you can look at the German & Russian company registers, the legal text of the Russian decree etc. for more detailed information. The next part is less well understood)

Previously this settlement took place through Gazprom Germania sending money from its German account(s) to an account of held in Gazprombank Luxembourg (GPB International S.A., a Luxembourgian Public Limited Company). This account may be a correspondence account for a Gazprombank Russia account owned by Gazprom Export, it's unclear. These funds can be frozen by the EU (and I think are, leading to the Russian claim that they're currently supplying some gas for "free").

With the law change in Russia, this transfer must now happen to a new type of currency account established by Gazprombank Russia (though it's unclear / not publicly known how those are backed, e.g. whether it's also through correspondent accounts at GBP International S.A.) where it is automatically sold and converted into rubles, which are then transferred to Gazprom Export in Russia.

Now an important bit that most people don't seem to get is that none of this affects pricing, it's akin to a change in payment method. The supply contracts between e.g. the European gas purchasers and Gazprom Germania have complicated pricing schemes which are likely tied to one or more currencies (EUR & USD) and Russia is sticking to those pricing agremeents - but insisting on changing how the settlement happens.

What is kind of unclear at the moment is what Gazprom stands to gain from the sale (and subsequent (attempted?) liquidation of Gazprom Germania). There are a handful of theories about this, but in practice we probably won't know for a while.

Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by neilwilson on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @09:49AM (#30918937)
The Luxembourg entities are not on the EU sanctions list[0]. That entity will essentially own Russia's Euro reserves from now on.

It's not as if this hasn't happened before. The 'EuroDollar' came about after the invasion of Hungary in 1956. Russia has just invented the 'RuskiEuro', which is how the Bank of Russia will hold Euros for the duration - probably in settlement accounts at the National Clearing Centre in Moscow.

[0]: https://www.luxtimes.lu/en/business-finance/rubles-for-gas-p...

Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @09:55AM (#30918991)
> 'EuroDollar' came about after the invasion of Hungary in 1956

The first known eurodollar account was opened in France for China during the Korean War, in 1949 [1]. The phenomenon is a result of the Marshall Plan, which left lots of physical dollars overseas and thus outside U.S. jurisdiction.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurodollar#History

Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by lobochrome on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @10:02AM (#30919094)
I agree. And since the RuskiEuro will be backed by a massive amount of commodity it'll be fairly hard currency. Zoltan Poszar has been clear on this[0].

My gut feeling is, that the EU, without any commodities, has a single choice: kick the Russian gas habit immediately, and force Russia to kill their western gas fields. Then pray they collapse in the next few years.

If the EU keeps paying - Russia's new Gazprom central bank controlled RuskiEuro reserves will stabilize its economy and it will rise like a phoenix from the ashes. Even if we kick the gas habit, this might still happen if Putin keeps his thumb on public sentiment enough.

[0]https://www.credit-suisse.com/about-us-news/en/articles/news...

Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by petre on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @02:56PM (#30923333)
President Trump was right about the gas terminal, North Stream 2 and ≥2% GDP for NATO militaries. Of course it was coming from his advisors. But no, the EU leadership decided to live in fantasy land. Only Eastern European states, Poland and the Baltics understood.
Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by yakubin on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @08:20AM (#30931205)
Pedantic nit: Poland and Baltic states are a part of Eastern Europe.
Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by petre on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @01:12PM (#30934872)
Poland is in Central Europe. UTC+2 is EE, so the Baltics. I was talking about SE Europe, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece.
Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by neilwilson on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @09:36AM (#30918792)
In all international trade the buyer pays with the currency they have, and the seller receives the currency they want to hold.

The banking system makes a handsome fee making that particular piece of alchemy happen.

Gory details about how this particular trick is pulled off is here[0] if you're interested.

[0]: https://new-wayland.com/blog/how-russian-gas-is-paid-for/

Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by adonovan on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @09:06AM (#30918455)
I've wondered about that question. Germany is not at war with Russia, Gazprom is a publicly traded company, and there are international courts that arbitrate such matters and could yet find the German government at fault. My non-lawyerly gut feeling is that, for better or worse, the trend of the last 30 years has been that the international mechanisms for enforcing contracts and property rights are now the strongest force in the legal universe, stronger than sovereignty and in some cases even human rights.
Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by hef19898 on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @09:09AM (#30918491)
There is a lae, ftom what I've read, that requires sqle fo certain companies running critical infrastructure to be communicated and approved. Gazprom didn't do so, the German subsidiary was put under government control (not legal ownership) because of that.

Honestly, I'm quite surprised how consistently and tough the new government plays the Ukraine crisis.

Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by laurent92 on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @09:10AM (#30918501)
Doesn’t the ITO (International Trade Organization) regulate international contacts with allowed and non allowed sanctions? I think Western states are currently tied to it, they can’t just impose “whatever” sanctions, and if we don’t, it would be legal for Russia to impose sanctions upon us.

Currently Russia has no right to sanction us, so anything they do is a further breach of ITO, which further deepens their case.

Diplomacy is important. The good guy has to respect the rules, or at least write them so we pretend that there are rules we adhere to.

Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by OrvalWintermute on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @10:56AM (#30919827)
I'm concerned about the use of sanctions, and the individual targeting of wealthy individuals as being anathema to the Rule of Law, property rights, and free exchange.

The dollar is inflating at the same time the reserve currency status is threatened, and we Americans, via our allies, are appropriating the stuff of foreigners, seizing boats, currency, gold, and property. I think >400B has been seized at this point.

How long until we move from "Russia Bad!" to other groups, and start turning inward onto ourselves, seizing their property because they are politically unpopular?

Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by tazjin on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @12:08PM (#30920785)
Russia is also consistently referring to the asset freeze as the Western countries defaulting on their obligations, which will resonate with countries that are not in the closest circle of the US.
Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by AwaAwa on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @08:06AM (#30931123)
Civil forfeiture on an international scale.
Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by tazjin on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @09:30AM (#30918722)
> they can’t just impose “whatever” sanctions

They can and they do. Enforcing any kind of international agreements in this situation is pure fiction.

> The good guy has to respect the rules

The existence of a bad guy doesn't imply the existence of a good guy.

Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @09:48AM (#30918923)
> Doesn’t the ITO (International Trade Organization) regulate international contacts

Venue depends on the contract. ITO only has jurisdiction where countries have submitted to it.

Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by ganzuul on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @08:56AM (#30918360)
One side does it with assassination.
Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by ajsnigrutin on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @09:04AM (#30918427)
And the other does with suiciding.
Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by ganzuul on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @09:06AM (#30918445)
Germany??
Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by ajsnigrutin on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @09:11AM (#30918502)
I was mostly targeting USA with that comment.

But germans have also murdered a lot of people not abiding by the societies rules, especially east germans back in the day.

Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by _3u10 on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @09:00AM (#30918393)
Yes but let’s not bring that up, it makes us look like a tinpot dictatorship nationalizing assets and assassinating people.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassinations_by_th...

Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by Traster on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @09:06AM (#30918454)
This is a dispute between Germany and Russia. I'm not sure what US assassinations of middle eastern war lords have to do with it.
Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by 1over137 on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @09:36AM (#30918794)
Hmmm, the larger dispute is between NATO and Russia. The USA is the head of NATO.
Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by ganzuul on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @11:29AM (#30920261)
If this insane idea that the sovereign nations of Europe have no agency of their own comes from American "news"-branded edutainment, I dearly suggest you defenestrate your television set. It is clearly rotting minds.
Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by mrguyorama on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @11:53AM (#30920569)
It tends to come from russian propaganda efforts. They have to make this look like they're fighting the US and not a bunch of sovereign, not enemy nations.
Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by holoduke on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @04:15PM (#30924397)
Hardly any euro state has real power when it comes to real decisions. Most of the euro states are politically heavily influenced by financial injections from the US. Military bases everywhere. US companies everywhere. All tech is dominated by the US. Of course Russia sees the US as the master country and euro countries as their puppets.
Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by Traster on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @04:31PM (#30924615)
If you really want to go down that road, it's Russia's gas that runs eastern Europe, not US cash. Yet still, Germany tells Russia where to stick it. This is quite clearly not an economic decision.
Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by ThalesX on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @07:57PM (#30926701)
> If you really want to go down that road, it's Russia's gas that runs eastern Europe, not US cash.

Imports of Russian gas (in billion cubic meters) as of 2020:

- Germany (42.6)

- Italy (29.2)

- Belarus (18.8)

- Turkey (16.2)

- Nertherlands (15.7)

- Hungary (11.6)

- Kazakhstan (10.2)

- Poland (9.6)

- China (9.2)

- Japan (8.8)

Oh how our East European borders have grown...

This is going to come off as agressive and whatever but I just really wish people like you that don't have any idea what they are talking about would just shut up already and stop polluting the internet with unfounded opinions.

Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by _3u10 on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @12:05PM (#30920746)
For a “sovereign” nation Germany is awfully dependent on Putin for energy and the US for defense.

My position is not that Germany has no agency it’s that it traded away it’s much of its agency to appease the Greens.

These opinions come not from American TV but from my relatives.

Freistaat Bayern uber alles!

Sorry about taking over Europe again, hope you are enjoying the EU dictating your countries economic fortunes.

Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by ganzuul on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @12:31PM (#30921107)
Talk like that gets you World War 3.
Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by _3u10 on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @06:33PM (#30925961)
If people spent more time walking and less time talking world war 3 wouldn’t have already started.
Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by usr1106 on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @07:51PM (#30926663)
> new owners

This was a completely fraudulent construct. 100% of the voting rights were sold for the equivalent of 1 Euro to a single person with no serious business background (has dealt with cars and performed as a DJ). This is a company with billions of turnover. And 99.99999% of the ownership was bought back by the the company itself.

Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by LatteLazy on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @01:58PM (#30922512)
Given the collapse(-ing) value of the Ruble, why would they want that?
Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by albertopv on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @02:44PM (#30923134)
Ruble went down but then fully recovered
Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by throw_5202 on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @06:07PM (#30925688)
It's not a real exchange rate because there is no free exchange. Russian exporters forced to exchange 80% of hard currency to rubles. An individual can get maximum $10k in cash until at least 9th September: https://www.cbr.ru/eng/press/event/?id=12744 (and there are similar limits on international payments/transfers).

When there is no free exchange rate is not very meaningful.

Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by petre on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @03:16PM (#30923606)
Yup. Not fully but close enough. Too bad.

https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=RUB

Re:Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania by LatteLazy on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @03:43PM (#30923985)
I stand corrected! I thought it was still way down.