News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:How to run a city-wide wireless network from a drawer by zackmorris on Sunday April 03, 2022 @01:44PM (#30898839)
I did a quick search to see if mesh networks have gone mainstream yet:

https://futureprepping.com/mobile-phone-mesh-networks/

The radio dongles are superfluous and I can't think of any engineering reason why all cell phones can't just communicate with others nearby already. Maybe not for cellular voice and data, but certainly for something akin to AppleTalk back in the 80s:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleTalk

When I got to college in 1995, all of the Macs were on the campus-wide LAN and lots of Mac users had their public folders shared. There were tons of apps and games and even little personal BBS-style areas where people posted stories and you could share files to their drop box. It was all free and open and frictionless and stands out vividly in my mind as a vision of what we thought the internet was going to be.

If we had that, it would be trivial to run something like IPFS to bypass the ISPs, even without paid cellular service. Then anyone could connect through their tunnel provider of choice and bypass any privacy concerns. The speed would be proportional to the number of nodes, so many thousands of times faster than internet today is, or ever can be.

With the debates around net neutrality and the cost of streaming, it's like we've forgotten that the only cost of the internet could be the electricity required to run a cell phone.

Re:How to run a city-wide wireless network from a drawer by joshspankit on Monday April 04, 2022 @02:03AM (#30903704)
You’ve just outlined a lot of reasons why we don’t:

1) Filesharing went from “harmless, only a few geeks do it” to “theft on a level that will put ‘us’ out of business”

1a) Media companies and device makers merged which means that device makers are now beholden to the copyright regime. Previously they argued “we just make tools, we can’t be responsible for how people use them” but we’ve lost those allies.

2) Openly sharing folders by default was great when everyone knew what they were doing, but the public now recognizes that there are real consequences when people don’t know what they are doing. From being “exposed as an imposer” (harmless and common imposter syndrome) to all manner of life/death consequences. It’s a whole different landscape.

3) No protocol is secure forever. Having all devices communicate with each other means that it’s only a matter of (usually a short) time before people can view other people’s personal information, and that leads right to point 2.

4) Similar to point 1, service providers have deals with device manufacturers and those providers don’t want people to be able to bypass them. They even write terms of service that say you’re not allowed to share with your neighbours so that even in the densest cities they can charge all 500 households that are within wifi range of each other though that creates a worse experience as the signals clobber each other.

Re:How to run a city-wide wireless network from a drawer by thrashh on Sunday April 03, 2022 @01:51PM (#30898910)
The electricity required is precisely the problem why we don’t do it.

And it’s not so much the power that it requires but that the extremely low energy density of lithium batteries means we have to minimize power usage as much as possible.

Re:How to run a city-wide wireless network from a drawer by contingencies on Sunday April 03, 2022 @07:07PM (#30901680)
I see no reason why mesh networking should need a huge amount more power than traditional mobile data. If we take the assumption that the vast majority of potential mesh members are unwanted (ie. you are not running a 'fully open' mesh network) then you can trivially ignore data that does not match an originator to which you have pre-approved listening. Similar to ethernet MAC filtering, I believe this is how implementation works in silicon. And indeed this seems to be the case. https://docs.kernel.org/driver-api/80211/mac80211.html?highl...

If you were relaying a lot of traffic for approved peers, then sure you are going to have a higher power profile. However, if you are doing this on an ongoing basis you are probably not battery-constrained (eg. you are connected to a larger power supply such as a vehicle, etc.) and you are potentially talking lower signal strength and closer peers. So it's really an application-specific concern.

Re:How to run a city-wide wireless network from a drawer by teraflop on Sunday April 03, 2022 @07:40PM (#30901893)
If you read datasheets for radio transceivers, one of the first things that will jump out at you is that simply keeping the analog radio front-end powered on -- either in listening or receiving mode -- is by far the biggest source of power consumption. (At least, this is true for all of the microcontrollers and relatively low-power embedded devices I've looked at. I can't guarantee how true it is for things like phones.)

For instance, the popular ESP8266 chip uses roughly 1mA in sleep mode, 15mA when the CPU is awake but the radio is off, 50mA when receiving, and 100-200mA when transmitting.

Nordic Semi's comparable nRF52810 uses less power, but follows a similar pattern: <1mA sleeping, 2mA with CPU active, 6mA receiving, 8mA transmitting.

So if you tell the radio hardware to discard packets that aren't addressed to you, you may be able to save a small amount of power by avoiding unnecessary CPU activity, but you will still be using dramatically more power than a non-mesh network in which your node could go to sleep when not in use.

In order to have any chance of getting reasonable battery life from a small mobile device, you need a protocol that establishes short time slots for devices to wake up and find out if they have any incoming data, so that they can spend as much time as possible with their radios turned off. This is difficult to achieve in a decentralized mesh.

Re:How to run a city-wide wireless network from a drawer by contingencies on Sunday April 03, 2022 @07:44PM (#30901913)
While I don't doubt your line of reasoning, one would assume these factors were taken in to account by the specialists who designed the protocols and they would have used obvious strategies like reducing the time domain for new peer associations and added predictive schedules for ongoing transfers. These must be common building blocks in radio protocol engineering.

Also, relatively speaking, modern wireless transfer rates are very fast and therefore transmissions will only be sporadic, and 200mA is not a lot of power. Ignoring other factors, napkin says you would have to hold 200mA consumption solidly for 15 hours to deplete a modern smartphone's 3000mAh battery. Most mobile mesh networking use cases will have long since concluded by that point.

According to a 2017 PhD dissertation[0] on a sample device cellular eats way more than wifi in the normal idle mode (p56). Therefore, if we ditch cellular there may actually be power budget savings when idle. However, all radio communications are totally dwarfed by display power (p58, p67, p72), especially at high brightness levels (p59).

[0] https://trustworthy.systems/publications/papers/Carroll%3Aph...

Re:How to run a city-wide wireless network from a drawer by roeles on Monday April 04, 2022 @11:08AM (#30907535)
> While I don't doubt your line of reasoning, one would assume these factors were taken in to account by the specialists who designed the protocols and they would have used obvious strategies like reducing the time domain for new peer associations and added predictive schedules for ongoing transfers. These must be common building blocks in radio protocol engineering.

In wifi, this is handled by the base station if I'm correct. It assigns slots for the associated receivers. Assigning slots in a mesh network without coordination is effectively a graph coloring problem and difficult to solve.

My professor for my master thesis was the author of LMAC, which attempted to assign slots to each node. It worked great in theory, but not so much in practice.

Re:How to run a city-wide wireless network from a drawer by contingencies on Monday April 04, 2022 @09:24PM (#30914194)
LMAC (2003) @ https://research.utwente.nl/files/5427399/VanHoesel_INSS04_0... seemed to target energy efficiency on bursty, short messages on fixed topology wireless networks, whereas we were discussing the potential for ad-hoc mesh for a general use case using existing wireless chipsets.

To take up the tangent, it seems to me that the graph coloring problem can either be (1) solved universally (any local mesh will have distinct boundaries which make absolute coordination feasible) by adding some sort of explicitly negotiated or progressively developed shared state to act as a coordination layer (2) solved temporarily, for example by implementing a best-effort failover/fallback (CSMA/CD feeds back to "color") (3) Ignored.

Solution class 1 is obviously challenging to apply to for mobile and ad-hoc mesh networks. Solution class 2 seems more realistic for this category of use case. Solution class 3 works well if you have full control of the application layer (eg. wireless sensor network is push-only with short packets with high temporal tolerance for retransmissions).

Feels a bit like "Energy optimization / throughput / ad-hoc topology / traffic generality. Choose any three."

Re:How to run a city-wide wireless network from a drawer by godelski on Sunday April 03, 2022 @02:36PM (#30899427)
I think if someone could build and demonstrate a cheap node that could be set up and run things like matrix and post it to HN that it could take off more. I think a lot of people know about mesh networks but have no idea how to set one up, legality, and can afford it (put me in this camp). But if it's something that is straightforward and you could cheaply deploy all around the city, then I think people would start putting them up.
Re:How to run a city-wide wireless network from a drawer by guessbest on Sunday April 03, 2022 @03:04PM (#30899665)
This used to be pretty common until applications like Napster took the usecase for p2p to mainstream for copyright music filesharing. Then p2p got a lot more scrutiny. Also, since it is hard to create a search index for wireless devices that may be offline, the mesh network becomes a bit of a darknet.
Re:How to run a city-wide wireless network from a drawer by Vladimof on Sunday April 03, 2022 @06:20PM (#30901307)
> The radio dongles are superfluous and I can't think of any engineering reason why all cell phones can't just communicate with others nearby already.

Google is not willing to allow ad-hoc wifi (at least last time I checked).

Re:How to run a city-wide wireless network from a drawer by contingencies on Sunday April 03, 2022 @06:53PM (#30901565)
Traditionally in the US, carriers own customers and mobile device manufacturers distribute through them. Many customers lease-to-own handsets on 'plans', with DRM in-handset to ensure the customer can't easily leave the 'deal'. However, Apple began to change this status quo by launching the iPhone and demanding customer ownership. Carriers derive revenues from customer network use. Any carrier that sees a major push toward dropping them is not going to be happy. But it will happen, eventually. But not if Android fails to support it. We desperately need better firmware. Everyone is locked in. There is no better time for an open phone...

If you try to ban the future, it will just happen elsewhere. - Paul Graham (2017)

Re:How to run a city-wide wireless network from a drawer by dopidopHN on Sunday April 03, 2022 @01:51PM (#30898903)
My bet is on LoRa being shipped with flagship phones.
Re:How to run a city-wide wireless network from a drawer by Vladimof on Sunday April 03, 2022 @06:21PM (#30901310)
An open alternative to LoRa would be nice...

https://revspace.nl/DecodingLora