News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Honduras Is Not For Sale (2021) by lmm on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @02:48AM (#30775691)
Most forms of governance have horror stories as well as success stories (you've already mentioned Hong Kong; Irvine was also a corporate-planned city and by all accounts that has made it a very nice place to live). Unless you have a controlled analysis showing that locally administered cities are less effective on the whole than national administration, I don't think historical anecdotes (as terrible as they are) add up to much.

> If it were built for the good of the locals it would just be built by the host government without an outside power, through partnerships and investment.

There are plenty of reasons a host government might want or need to credibly commit to noninterference. Areas with endemic corruption have had success appointing judges or administrators from far away who don't have local family/clan ties. Countries with weak credit that want to attract foreign investments will often issue debt in foreign currency and/or under foreign law. Countries with major divisions may invite foreign peacekeepers. Etc.

> If it genuinely is well-intentioned for the "good of the locals" then of course, well-off foreigners coming in and telling the locals what's what has a very long, and very poor track record. See: uh, basically anywhere.

Local government in these places also has a long and poor track record.

I'm sure there are good and bad charter cities, but I don't see any reason to think the concept is inherently terrible.

Re:Honduras Is Not For Sale (2021) by arcticbull on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @03:05AM (#30775794)
> I'm sure there are good and bad charter cities, but I don't see any reason to think the concept is inherently terrible.

Has there been a good charter city? I can't think of a single one. So, with that in mind, what has changed?

The proposed governance model is a foreigner gets control over a section of domestic soil, domestic individuals, makes the laws, and can bring in their overseers. This sounds like every other attempt at colonialism.

I'm just advocating for a government accountable to its people. A government not accountable to its people, sounds to me like an inherently poor idea.

Would you be ok with a CCP run charter city in the Nevada desert to mine for minerals? How about a CCP state-run enterprise controlled charter city in the Nevada desert? Or a Russian Gazprom controlled charter city in Alaska? How about one put up by a Russian oligarch? Each with their own immigration policy where the state and federal governments have limited oversight. Why is it distasteful here? I'm sure they would each argue the governance in rural America doesn't have the best track record.

Re:Honduras Is Not For Sale (2021) by lmm on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @03:33AM (#30775970)
> Has there been a good charter city? I can't think of a single one.

This precise kind of charter city is a new kind of thing, but plenty of the closest existing or historical analogues have been successful, in as much as they've been more prosperous and more pleasant places to live than comparable cities that don't have such special treatment. Hong Kong. West Berlin. Danzig. Singapore. Shenzen. Shannon.

> The proposed governance model is a foreigner gets control over a section of domestic soil, domestic individuals, makes the laws, and can bring in their overseers. This sounds like every other attempt at colonialism.

If an unaccountable foreign entity really was running it as a possession, I agree that would be just as bad as you say it is. The positive version is if the city has first-class representation in that foreign governance. Compare somewhere like la Reunion, which is more prosperous and a better place to live than its comparable neighbours, because it's part of France, in a sense that I think is not usually understood as colonial (at least, one that is seen by its residents as positive, in a way that colonialism generally isn't).

> I'm just advocating for a government accountable to its people. A government not accountable to its people, sounds to me like an inherently poor idea.

I agree that accountability is important. I don't think central governments in developing countries are particularly good at it, to the point that I find it very plausible that a foreign-involved charter city could end up with better accountability.

> Would you be ok with a CCP run charter city in the Nevada desert to mine for minerals? How about a CCP state-run enterprise controlled charter city in the Nevada desert? Or a Russian Gazprom controlled charter city in Alaska? How about one put up by a Russian oligarch? Each with their own immigration policy where the state and federal governments have limited oversight. Why is it distasteful here? I'm sure they would each argue the governance in rural America doesn't have the best track record.

They would argue that, but they'd be wrong, wouldn't they, at least relatively speaking. The reason those examples are distasteful is, as hard as it is to make this argument without sounding naive, that the CCP and Russia have a poor track record of running governments for the benefit of their citizens, worse than rural America. Sometimes the details matter and we have to actually make a judgement about which actors are good and which are bad. I'd be perfectly OK with e.g. Norway or Switzerland sponsoring a charter city in Nevada.

Re:Honduras Is Not For Sale (2021) by arcticbull on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @03:45AM (#30776046)
I think you make a lot of interesting points.

Minor quibble re: Singapore, it wasn't exactly a model until it was kicked out of Malaysia (gaining sovereignty against its own will for what I believe is the first and only time ever) and was catapulted into modernity by Lee Kwan Yew.

> I'd be perfectly OK with e.g. Norway or Switzerland sponsoring a charter city in Nevada.

I think you'll find that a very unpopular opinion. America's dead set on not ceding Point Roberts after all - a tiny chunk of nothing accessible only via Canada that happens to be American due to a penmanship artifact. They get water from Canada and use the Canadian fire department. [1] Let alone carving out a portion of the contiguous states for the Norwegians.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Roberts,_Washington

Re:Honduras Is Not For Sale (2021) by jacquesm on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @05:13AM (#30776544)
All of Canada started out as a charter and to this day that shows in how Canadians are effectively boxed in on all sides in a continent sized corporation. Canada is rife with 'company town' like constructs including a whole raft of artificially created monopolies.
Re:Honduras Is Not For Sale (2021) by arcticbull on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @01:08PM (#30780713)
... right, a colony. That's the whole point I'm making, that charter cities are colonialism redux. And if you'll recall it didn't go well for the people already there at the time - the other point I'm making.
Re:Honduras Is Not For Sale (2021) by jsmith45 on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @12:17PM (#30780050)
I am also aware of several Vancouver businesses (some of which are technically in other cities like Delta) that would also strongly oppose Point Roberts being ceded. It makes it easy to offer non-international shipping to US customers, by way of driving into it, dealing with customs in person (which can be less headache then the customs broker services offered by post or parcel services), and then finally sending from the post office, or one of the couriers in the US itself.

The same system can also be used in reverse, for people who live nearby. This is especially useful for buying things from company that won't ship internationally at all, or who charge excessive fees for shipping internationally.

Re:Honduras Is Not For Sale (2021) by arcticbull on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @01:12PM (#30780775)
I'm not sure the UPS store is the one holding it back. There have been off and on bilateral negotiations for 100 years.
Re:Honduras Is Not For Sale (2021) by lb1lf on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @04:04AM (#30776141)
> I'd be perfectly OK with e.g. Norway or Switzerland sponsoring a charter city in Nevada.

-Oh, Norway's already got Wisconsin, the Dakotas and Minnesota sorted - not to mention parts of Washington.

(It was surreal first time I found myself in Minnesota and a shop clerk accidentally toppled the bag she was filling with my purchase. -'Uffda!' she exclaimed, and I quizzically inquired, in Norwegian, whether she spoke Norwegian.

A second's blank stare followed, before she giggled and asked me whether I had assumed she was Scandinavian. Hence I learned of that Norwegian bit of cultural imperialism, 'Uff da!') [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uff_da

Re:Honduras Is Not For Sale (2021) by rob74 on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @04:18AM (#30776213)
Don't know about the rest, but West Berlin wouldn't have been viable without massive financial support from West Germany. So it was successful because it had to be successful as a showcase of capitalism, but left to its own devices (even without being blockaded by the soviet army) it would have quickly failed...
Re:Honduras Is Not For Sale (2021) by forum_ghost on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @01:58PM (#30781335)
How about the 99 year long leased city-state of Hong Kong? Seems to have worked out quite well during the lease, not so much after it ended.

Have you actually read Prospera's code? It's available online. Prospera is most definitely accountable.

Re:Honduras Is Not For Sale (2021) by arcticbull on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @03:11PM (#30782110)
Hong Kong Island wasn't on lease, it was ceded in perpetuity in the Treaty of Nanjing. It's the New Territories that were on lease. When the lease ran out, it was deemed impossible to consolidate the population from the peninsula onto the island.