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Re:Web3 is centralized and inefficient by neelc on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @12:35AM (#30774996)
This. The sad thing is that people like the convenience of centralized systems.

Humans are lazy. They'll go with the #1 option, even if it means building a centralized monopoly.

I should've made this point clearer.

Note: I am the article's author.

Re:Web3 is centralized and inefficient by alexb_ on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @12:50AM (#30775075)
Even then, I think blaming it on laziness is really not a good idea. People are not lazy for not understanding how systems work - not every single person has time for that, or cares about decentralization. Laziness implies it's a problem, and programmers have an unhealthy fascination with seeing problems and thinking they can all be fixed somehow if they just technology hard enough.

You have to look at the individual decisions that people make, and actually make it worth someone's time to do something themselves. For some people, they care a lot about decentralization, are anti-corporate, etc., but most people don't care. They see that they could either spend money on a cheap PC and 10 hours learning about, setting up, and troubleshooting their own mail server; or they can get a gmail account in 2 minutes and get the exact same practical result. The same will apply to web3 systems. It's not laziness, it's people making rational decisions.

Re:Web3 is centralized and inefficient by the_snooze on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @09:21AM (#30778175)
>programmers have an unhealthy fascination with seeing problems and thinking they can all be fixed somehow if they just technology hard enough.

This. It's not up to techies to decide what people value. The philosophical problem with web3/blockchain/whatever is that it assumes "decentralization" is a valuable thing in and of itself, without really tying it into what people actually value.

Re:Web3 is centralized and inefficient by usrbinbash on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @05:08AM (#30776518)
> Humans are lazy. They'll go with the #1 option, even if it means building a centralized monopoly.

Am I lazy because I don't forge spare parts for my car and install them myself? No. I leave this to the huge, rich, established company that manufactured my car, and their contractors. Why? Because the only times I ever repaired anything in a car, was in videogames. And I want to be sure that the thing that I entrust my safety to while traveling, is in excellent working order.

For the same reason, most people don't setup their own mail servers, don't setup their own racks to run webapps, invent their own currencies, grow their own food, produce their own electricity, or dig wells.

Our society runs on a huge variety of systems, most of which are too complex individually for any single human to fully understand/make/maintain on his own. Centralization is not a bad thing to be avoided, it's an inevitable consequence of technological development.

Re:Web3 is centralized and inefficient by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @07:03AM (#30777162)
This example is silly - it's actually impossible for you to forge spare parts for your car, as most of them require multi-million dollar machines to manufacture, the information on how they are made, blueprints or schematics are not avaliable to you. And even if you succeed, someof them are IP protected so this is a terrible analogie.
Re:Web3 is centralized and inefficient by usrbinbash on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @08:43AM (#30777846)
I can give you plenty of more feasible analogies;

Do I make my own bread? Sure, sometimes I do. Baking bread isn't that hard. But do I do it every day? No. Why? Because it takes time to do, my kitchen counter is usually a mess afterwards, and the result usually doesn't taste anywhere near as good as the 20+ bread varieties I can buy at the corner store. I sometimes do it for fun, but I wouldn't do it every day.

Let's go to macro scale: What's the better solution: 1000000 people each baking their own bread (1 loaf a day), or a giant company baking all the bread? A million stoves are most certainly less energy efficient than the professional industrial ones at the company. Having to divide the resources into many small packages and distributing them to each individual households is less efficient. The quality of the bread will vary widely. And lets say baking takes 0.5 hours, that's 57 person years wasted per day to do something the bread factory can probably do with a few dozen employees.

Re:Web3 is centralized and inefficient by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @09:32AM (#30778270)
'Let's go to macro scale: What's the better solution: 1000000 people each baking their own bread (1 loaf a day), or a giant company baking all the bread?'

The same argument advocates monopoly or central planning by government?

If not, you have to jistify where is centralised enough. Now, if we have a 20,000 different bakeries, is that actually centralised?

Decentralisation of plumbers doesnt mean everyone does his own plumbing, it means anyone willing to learn can become a plumber and there is no plumbing monopoly.

Also we should debate the actual subject, not debate it indirectly throufh analogie, it just introduces an extra step of inaccuracy and cultural baggage.

Re:Web3 is centralized and inefficient by zhynn on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @12:28PM (#30780189)
I know you wanted to veer back to the topic, but just to add another example to the pile: the math on mass transit is just blindingly obvious. A cheap centralized transit system is wildly more efficient for moving people around than individual cars. And investments in it will "lift all boats" socioeconomically speaking.

But it is more about the problems than the methodology. Centralized/Cooperative methods are more appropriate to solving a complex problem for which you know the solution (building a house, mass transit, maintaining highways). Distributed/Competitive methodology is better for exploring a problem space (determining the most energy efficient house design, innovative bus or train engines, cost effective highway surfaces). If you use cooperative when you should be using competition, you get a cartel. If you use competition when you should be cooperating, you get extreme inefficiency and long delays (I don't think we have a word for when we force groups who should be cooperating to compete with each other for resources).

Re:Web3 is centralized and inefficient by hunter2_ on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @03:30PM (#30782303)
> I don't think we have a word for when we force groups who should be cooperating to compete with each other for resources

I agree in terms of forcing, but we have plenty of ways to describe the general idea of choosing this direction, typically in exchange for a (real or perceived) benefit, but almost always with the inefficiency/delay you mentioned:

homegrown

homemade

handmade

handcrafted

artisan

DIY

roll your own

Re:Web3 is centralized and inefficient by usrbinbash on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @11:42AM (#30779644)
> The same argument advocates monopoly or central planning by government?

My argument isn't "centralization is good no matter what".

My argument is "centralization is not inherently a bad thing that is to be overcome. Done correctly, as demonstrated by many existing systems in our society, it is a great way to make things our society needs work at scale in an efficient manner."

Re:Web3 is centralized and inefficient by 0ldskool on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @03:13PM (#30782137)
I think centralization is often the most efficient solution, the assumption being that the central authority has implemented the most efficient system. The problem though is the same as governments. Dictatorship is the most efficient way to run a country, people do as the dictator says there is no questioning it. All choices of the dictator are made and no waste is done in thinking or processing of the decision. The problem becomes that these centralization solutions almost always turn sour. The central authority (dictator) may have started off benevolent/perfect but either they eventually turn bad, successors turn bad, or the central authority becomes inefficient in new environmental conditions.

Decentralization like democracy introduces inefficiencies but at the same time provides safeguards against these conditions. The goal is to provide the minimum amount of inefficiencies while providing the maximum amount of safeguards.

Re:Web3 is centralized and inefficient by usrbinbash on Thursday March 24, 2022 @06:36AM (#30788089)
> Decentralization like democracy introduces inefficiencies but at the same time provides safeguards against these conditions.

Most democracies are not purely decentralized systems, however. There is still a central government, the difference is how it obtains its ruling power.

Even the elections themselves are not de-centralized, as in "everyone run his own DIY election system and we'll see what sticks". There are central authorities for tallying votes, providing election sites, safeguarding and vetting the process, declaring rules, etc.

Which is a perfect example for how cenralized systems can be both efficient and safeguarded.

Re:Web3 is centralized and inefficient by preseinger on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @04:50PM (#30783176)
The long arc of human civilization absolutely points toward unification of society and government, not balkanization into independent city-states.
Re:Web3 is centralized and inefficient by lal on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @10:20AM (#30778720)
Maybe it's just me, but unless I'm crazy you've just listed all of the reasons it's actually an entirely workable analogy.
Re:Web3 is centralized and inefficient by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @11:48AM (#30779710)
I dont get it- how does lack of blueprints and IP protection apply to blockchain, where all code is public?
Re:Web3 is centralized and inefficient by lal on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @12:24PM (#30780148)
Maybe not all of the things you listed, but the comparison to forging your own materials with expensive equipment in a painstaking process that takes a long time is very, very comparable to the requirement web3 places on individuals to invest massive amounts of resources, time, and effort to do basic things that they can do right now very simply without any such obligations. Until web3 manages to overcome these limitations your vision of a future utopian internet where everything is slower and the planet catches on fire won't be adopted by anyone except niche enthusiasts (just like building your own car).
Re:Web3 is centralized and inefficient by Karrot_Kream on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @01:11AM (#30775189)
Why is this sad? We live in a world of Ikea furniture and cabinetry, of fast food and passionate gourmet, there's room in the world for the convenient and the passionate tinkerers. Everyone is different and likes to allocate their time in different places. My partner will not put a sticker on her laptop that she hasn't designed and drawn herself, while I type on a handmade desk. That there are easy and hard ways to do things is fantastic; it means I can pick the lazy choice for things I don't care for and the passionate things for those I do. Do you really want a world where everyone cares about the same things you do? I feel the world is better for its diversity.
Re:Web3 is centralized and inefficient by UncleMeat on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @07:55AM (#30777515)
This isn't laziness. This is different priorities. Few people think that decentralized systems are an important thing in and of themselves. Laziness would be believing the decentralization is good without working to achieve it.
Re:Web3 is centralized and inefficient by bluehorseray on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @12:59AM (#30775119)
I don't think it's necessarily sad at all. It seems like centralized systems make the most sense in, well, most systems. And safeguards can be put in place to prevent the centralization from being abused.
Re:Web3 is centralized and inefficient by oivey on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @01:06AM (#30775163)
I think people have some big misunderstandings about power. You’re right, centralized systems can lead to monopolies. On the other hand, decentralized systems where no one has absolute power can make important changes difficult to implement. See: changes to Bitcoin and Ethereum’s protocols to address issues with mining.
Re:Web3 is centralized and inefficient by vanveenada on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @02:28PM (#30781661)
Do you knit?

Do you wear sweaters?

The sweaters you have -- did you knit them?

Do you wear shirts?

Did you sew them yourself?

If not, why are you so lazy?

Re:Web3 is centralized and inefficient by MrMan on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @12:50PM (#30780492)
this statement is embarrassing. specialization and division of labor is not due to "laziness"
Re:Web3 is centralized and inefficient by shadowgovt on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @12:52AM (#30775082)
It's almost as if trust turns out to be some kind of dominant strategy.
Re:Web3 is centralized and inefficient by MrMan on Wednesday March 23, 2022 @12:53PM (#30780528)
thank you