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Re:I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than... by xyzzyz on Sunday March 20, 2022 @08:39PM (#30748578)
My point is that you claim that college prepares people to be adults “in every way”, so I wonder in what way today’s college graduates are more prepared to be adults than, say, overwhelming majority of adults were in 1930s, who didn’t have any college experience.
Re:I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than... by wolverine876 on Monday March 21, 2022 @03:36AM (#30751302)
> My point is that you claim that college prepares people to be adults “in every way”, so I wonder in what way today’s college graduates are more prepared to be adults than, say, overwhelming majority of adults were in 1930s, who didn’t have any college experience.

Yes, generally speaking. And they were better prepared than people from the 1840s, who mostly were illiterate (no universal education), lost most of their kids at a young age, etc. If you spend zero years preparing for something and I spend four (or 12 and 16 years), I'm going to be better prepared most likely. There are diminishing marginal returns at some point, but college is qualitatively very different than high school.

This question comes up many times, as if it's a personal insult to people without college degrees. Let's imagine it does insult them (which I don't think it does); should we reject all progress for ourselves because others don't have access to it and might be offended? You have access to the Interet and I don't - are you saying you are better than me? The Internet is useless! And now we don't want to offend people in the 1930s? There are things other people have done that benefitted their lives, and that I missed out on - good for them!

Re:I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than... by xyzzyz on Monday March 21, 2022 @10:27AM (#30754509)
> Yes, generally speaking.

This is not an answer to a “in what way” question. I will grant you that elementary school teaching people to read, write and basic arithmetics, does indeed inculcate skills very important in adult life, but from there to argue that a marginal year of education gives you some marginal amount of human capital, only shows how weak your argument is: it’s completely useless without trying to quantify the actual learning. What if a year of college actually reduces a day’s worth of useful stuff? What a waste of time it would be, and yet totally compatible with your argument.

And, it might be of interest to you, that the last month of 12th year of education, and last month of 16th year “teaches” a lot more useful stuff than the previous 4 years in terms of how it translates to increased success in adult life, as studies show. This is actually obvious to everyone, that obtaining diploma is worth more than 4 years worth of learning, but the point is that education is not about learning.

Re:I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than... by wolverine876 on Monday March 21, 2022 @06:28PM (#30760565)
You're really questioning the value of education past 5th grade?

> it’s completely useless without trying to quantify the actual learning

Most things in life can't be quantified, yet aren't useless.

> the last month of 12th year of education, and last month of 16th year “teaches” a lot more useful stuff than the previous 4 years in terms of how it translates to increased success in adult life, as studies show

What studies?

Re:I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than... by xyzzyz on Monday March 21, 2022 @10:10PM (#30762063)
> You're really questioning the value of education past 5th grade?

No, I just raised this as a response to your comment claiming people in 1840 America were "mostly illiterate"[1]: I was talking about reading and writing, because you were talking about literacy, and I do agree that it is valuable to teach people basic literacy and numeracy. In no way my comment above implies that I question the value of education past 5th grade.

That said, I do in fact question value of state-organized mass education past 5th grade as it currently exist, yes. To be clear, I'm not questioning the value of learning things past 5th grade, but rather the way we pretend people learn things today.

> Most things in life can't be quantified, yet aren't useless.

If you decompose the syntax of the sentence you're referring to, you'll find that the "useless" in it does not refer to "education", but rather to your argument: it is useless to argue that "X is good for you, so extra 4-8 years doing X is worth it", unless you can quantify exactly how good X in fact is for you, and how good extra 4-8 years of doing X would be.

Say, imagine X to be "learning to play a musical instrument": it's probably worthwhile for everyone to spend some time doing that, but the idea that everyone needs to spend at least 12 years of their lifes, and most people should spend 4 on top of that, is rather ludicrous. How do you know that regular schooling is not exactly liked that, without trying to quantify it? You don't.

> What studies?

The Google Scholar keyword for you to familiarize yourself with the rather substantial literature on the topic is "sheepskin effect".

[1] - you are very much wrong that Americans in 1840 were mostly illiterate, by the way: literacy in US was historically always very high, and by mid 1800s, large majority was already literate, despite lack of federally-mandated government schooling. This is a legacy of English heritage, where majority of male Englishmen were already literate in mid 1600s. They did not get there through top-down state-organized schooling, it was mostly a bottom-up effort, where local Church played huge role.

Re:I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than... by cbm-vic-20 on Sunday March 20, 2022 @09:01PM (#30748779)
In the 1930s, you weren't expected to have 5 years of experience for an entry level job, and they had actual on-the-job training, which no company wants to invest in anymore.
Re:I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than... by xyzzyz on Monday March 21, 2022 @01:09AM (#30750529)
For the kinds of jobs that were available in 1930s, the employers today will in fact hire just about anyone, as the labor shortage is enormous. The sort of jobs you are thinking about, employers do typically require a college degree, but that’s just a self-licking ice cream cone: if only few people had college degrees, employers couldn’t really require them from all candidates.
Re:I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than... by tcmart14 on Sunday March 20, 2022 @09:44PM (#30749086)
With as bad as some of Ford's practices were, he did have a couple decent ones. If I recall correctly, Ford essentially had his own internal engineering school where some line workers could get accepted into, become engineers and work for the company as an engineer.
Re:I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than... by wheelinsupial on Monday March 21, 2022 @01:23AM (#30750596)
I haven’t heard that one before about Ford. GM supported / took over a school and renamed it the GM Institute of Technology in its earlier years, now it’s Kettering University [1].

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kettering_University

Re:I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than... by tcmart14 on Monday March 21, 2022 @01:35AM (#30750649)
I don't have links at hand. I learned about it my History of Engineering class. But from my understanding, employees in the program worked during the day and then essentially attended classes taught at Ford facilities during the evening.
Re:I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than... by wolverine876 on Monday March 21, 2022 @06:30PM (#30760589)
That's great, but they only did it for white men. If you're skin color happened to be black, you couldn't advance past janitor (IIRC). It was affirmative action for white men.
Re:I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than... by tcmart14 on Monday March 21, 2022 @08:45PM (#30761598)
Well thats a given. This program took place during segregation when people had messed up ideas in to how the color of one's skin determines the character of that person. But we can still highlight the merits of the program and bring something similar into the modern age where people are not rejected based on skin color.

Even worst than than that. Ford was a huge anti-Semite and one of his papers had major influence over Hitler who then went on to genocide millions of Jews. Dude was for sure an asshole. He also fired workers who drank or gambled during their off time and had company men who raided homes of his workers.