Most people like to get up when the Sun is coming up or close to it. People don't want to wake when it's dark for another 1-2 hours. Without DLST then the Sun would come up at around 8:30 in December and January in northern states. People are up at 6:30, 7AM - waiting around 2 hours would be awful. And a waste of energy in the morning.

The wasting energy argument seems to be the opposite to me. People will get home and not have to immediately turn on lights, saving some energy. Not everyone is awake at 6:30am, so their lights remain off.

Instead of a waste of energy in the evening?

Your arguments have very subjective points and you could easily claim that due to WFH more people are waking up later.

WFH affects a very small part of the population. Most working people have to start early for various reasons and have to go to a workplace. Having the Sun is useful for them. Most people start work at 8AM.

> And a waste of energy in the morning

How is it not the same waste of energy in the evenings? People don't go to sleep when the sun sets.

Because you're awake for a longer period when it is dark out so you need to use energy.

Really? Seems pretty straight forward. For early risers it's nice to wake up to the sun...

I think it comes down to, "what do I prefer"

Early risers can just... turn on the lights.

You can't just "turn on the lights" for outdoor activities except in very specific cases. Those activities can't really be done in the morning because people have to get ready for school/work during that time. I really don't want to waste perfectly good sunlight getting ready for work. Let me use it when it can actually be used.

why is "turn on the lights" good enough for early risers but not for late-to-beds or night owls?

I would suggest it's because the sun is a far better light, and most people don't have the ability to light up the entire area to make it seem like daytime.

Note: I'm a late-to-bed person myself, so I'm happy about this, but I want to be honest about the fact that my support for it over a permanent no DST is my personal preference being imposed on others. In the US south there's a saying, "don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining" and I try to honor that here.

> why is "turn on the lights" good enough for early risers but not for late-to-beds or night owls?

I literally say my reasoning in my comment. It's much harder to light up the outdoors for outdoor activities after work/school. I can't use sunlight in the morning for anything other than a wake-up aid.

You edited and added that after I posted my comment, because that was not there when I wrote my reply.

But regardless, I still disagree. You seem to be assuming that early risers don't want to do outside activities, but that is not true. There are plenty of people that go for a run or jog, or morning hike, etc before work. At a previous company we had a rock climbing club called, "Get High in the Morning" :-D

Climbing gyms are indoors anyway!

We didn't use a gym, we climbed real rocks :-)

One of the benefits of living in Utah, great rock climbing was only a 15 to 20 minute drive from the office.

Which probably is the best argument for the status quo of changing clocks; but personally I’ll take permanent daylight savings over permanent standard time every day of the week.

Yes likewise. Now that we aren't a farm culture, DST makes little sense to me. We should make time permanent, and I'd prefer permanent DST personally.

Well, that isn’t actually fair. You and I may not live on a farm, but there is still plenty of “farming culture” even in America and I don’t think it is fair to dismiss their concerns out of hand. I just know that if we’re going to pick a bad optimization, which one I prefer as a city dweller that enjoys the local beaches.

And the way I personally always dealt with it is by having clocks that set themselves and barely noticing when they changed, or in some years, not even noticing at all unless someone else brought it up.

Yeah, to be clear I'm not dismissing their concerns. I'm just saying that now that farmers are just like 3% of the population, optimizing for their use case probably doesn't make as much sense as it used to.

Daylight in the morning does wonders for resetting your circadian rhythm to the actual day, rather than its internal 25-something hour day.

What would naturally happen by making daylight savings time permanent is that people's circadian rhythms would shift forward until daylight savings time basically becomes the same thing as standard time.

It would be really interesting to study this - in Europe the same time-zone covers between approximately 30m behind true time (e.g. in eastern Poland) and 1h 30m ahead (in Galicia) - do Galicians typically get up later than Poles?

China has it even more so - a single time-zone covering what should be five - are people in Fuyuan waking up at 03:00 when the sun rises in summer, whilst people in Zanda sleep in till 07:30?

I prefer daylight in the morning. It's easier for me to wake up and be alert after sunrise, and I feel like a zombie before sunrise. Don't really care if the sun sets at 5:30 or 6:30 p.m.

It's healthier. On the surface I prefer sleeping less and not working out, but it effects my health poorly.