News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:How on earth I became an entrepreneur by AussieWog93 on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @09:02AM (#30684710)
I feel this guy 100%. The economics of employment simply don't make rational sense, and was a huge part of why I started working for myself too.

You provide literally nothing of value to the customer, burden the customer-focused employees with unnecessary bullshit and use all of your political capital to advocate for the hiring of more deadweight employees? 100k per year.

You advocate for, build and maintain a product worth $10m/year to the business? Wow, you're pretty special. You can have 150k!

Re:How on earth I became an entrepreneur by NAHWheatCracker on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @09:51AM (#30685233)
That reminds me of a few years ago when a director gave a presentation to the whole organization about innovation. Near the end of the presentation, he summarized that everyone needed to share ideas. Then he anticipated a few questions.

If we a good idea, would we be able to work on it? Probably not, the "innovation team", which was his team, would be the ones to build the prototype.

If we had a successful good idea, would we receive any compensation? No, and that's very selfish. He insinuated that we should rethink priorities or place of work if compensation was important.

He also talked about how he only wanted ideas that had the potential to make billions.

Re:How on earth I became an entrepreneur by cushychicken on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @12:06PM (#30687049)
lol I've been on the receiving end of that pitch too.

Felt a lot like: "Give us your best ideas, then GTFO of the room so we can implement your cool brainchild - with no credit to you!"

There's practically zero reward for the folks with good ideas in that model, yet it's sort of the table stakes innovation model.

Re:How on earth I became an entrepreneur by ep103 on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @10:09AM (#30699041)
My very first job I built a code library that, when I trained my teammates on its use (I was angling for a team lead position) we found, on average, reduced their time per project by a range of 50-90% per project by automating out tons of boilerplate, and allowing us to leverage previously created work.

We're talking about things that used to take 1-2 weeks, being done by Tuesday, if it was assigned on a Monday morning. It was nuts.

My immediate manager, didn't understand it.

His manager sat down with me and read through the code, and was ecstatic.

He brought the CEO in (it was a small shop, that was the next level), and explained out the implications.

AND..... that was the last I ever heard of it. They bought me some pizza.

On their own they decided that if they repackaged the library itself, they could sell it as a b2b tool (which was a pretty good idea).

And they assigned devs and PMs from other teams to build it.

And those devs and PMs never took a look at my code. I'm guessing they were never told about it. They did, however, build their design the exact same way they had built everything else before my library. Which meant, it made all the same mistakes they had always made. Their final product didn't really move the needle. It did not really save anyone much time. And it did not successfully sell to other businesses.

Except by then, it was the new "company initiative". And the % of resources the company had put into its development was substantial. So when it failed completely to materialize real results, it was devastating for the company.

They ended up laying off some ~20% of the company to recover losses in the months after I quit.

So yeah: "Give me your best ideas so we can implement them with out you" doesn't work. If you could have implemented the idea, you would have had it already.

Re:How on earth I became an entrepreneur by NAHWheatCracker on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @12:57PM (#30687726)
Exactly, at least it was easy to just not share with that team.

A couple years later an engineering manager at the same level gave another presentation about how innovation and ideas have been lacking. He placed the blame on software engineers not trying hard enough.

I think there's a certain type of person who thinks that the only type of success is one where all of the profit/credit goes to them. Sadly, they seem to be the leaders of many organizations.

Re:How on earth I became an entrepreneur by npsimons on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @01:09PM (#30687921)
> we should rethink ... place of work if compensation was important.

If that's not a glaring neon sign telling you to quit, and quit now, I don't know what is.

Re:How on earth I became an entrepreneur by NAHWheatCracker on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @02:55PM (#30689428)
Well the compensation there is fine. It's not really correlated with results in my opinion, but that's typical in massive organizations.

It probably sounds worse on paper and due to my phrasing. I'd say he was stating the reality and being a doofus (he's the excitable and friendly type). It wasn't so sinister.

Re:How on earth I became an entrepreneur by npsimons on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @06:54PM (#30693025)
I myself might be overreacting a bit; having "noped" out of a large bureaucracy relatively recently, my "stick it to the man!" mode gets triggered easily by such things, as well as such articles as OP.

Honestly, the line "had me question everything, including my self-worth, my identity, and purpose" resonated with me so deeply, not just the first time I was laid off, but even now 20 years later and having left by choice.

On the flipside, to get CYA-managery, but any time someone in management says anything approaching "you should quit" that can be a bit worrisome. They might be doing you a favor, but the org is more than likely to be hurt by you leaving.

Re:How on earth I became an entrepreneur by itsmemattchung on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @09:40AM (#30685113)
This whole article is music to my ears. I left behind a rewarding career to test out entrepreneurship and while rocky initially, it's paying back in ways I could not have imagined. Similar to the author, I'm perfectly content with a 9-5 job but since taking the leap, I can now no longer imagine returning to my position.
Re:How on earth I became an entrepreneur by xwdv on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @09:57AM (#30685331)
What is the appropriate compensation then for someone who maintains a product worth $10m/year?

Suppose it’s $500k a year.

Well, what if someone says they could do it for $200k a year? Or even less? Why keep the $500k employee???

That is how they arrive at $150k. It maximizes profit and keeps costs to a minimum. Good business.

Re:How on earth I became an entrepreneur by vsareto on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @10:49AM (#30686015)
You're missing a whole lot of risk here, and for only a small gain.

You may not be able to guarantee that the new person can do it. This isn't a given, otherwise we would have all figured out how to hire the right devs for any given product and team.

There's a ramp up time to learning the product (and codebase, if it's software). If an emergency happens, only the new person will be fixing it and they will lack a lot of knowledge to fix it quickly or effectively.

Did the maintainer have any customer relations like customer feedback, including what works and doesn't in the product and what features they would like to see? Those have just been forfeited as well. Same for intra-company relationships.

The person you just fired could also go help make a competing product (legally or not), since they're the best person to do so. Chasing this down would require legal resources, which requires further expenses.

Sounds like a whole lot of extra potential complications for a measly +$300k.

Re:How on earth I became an entrepreneur by xwdv on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @10:58AM (#30686140)
This is a very employee centric view.

In reality, if you are depending on one employee to make your business that is a huge risk.

That employee needs to document and transfer his knowledge and relationships out to the company at large. You must raise the bus factor.

Re:How on earth I became an entrepreneur by csa on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @12:53PM (#30687666)
> In reality, if you are depending on one employee to make your business that is a huge risk.

This is extremely common in many/most SMBs.

> That employee needs to document and transfer his knowledge and relationships out to the company at large.

Most employees who are rainmakers/linchpins like this are also aware that they are rainmakers/linchpins.

First, knowledge documentation and transfer in reality is hard. Very few people read docs, even when they are told to and those docs are critical to their job and the business as a whole. If you do it face-to-face, it’s almost always the case that the person learning politely listens and is already making a mental list of changes (often catastrophic) that they are going to make.

Second, relationships are extremely valuable, and anyone who has them pretty much knows this. Why would they give this up freely? Oh, you will fire them? I guess the company’s competitor would love to have your rainmaker and all of his/her contacts.

In all of the sustainable and stable businesses I have seen, these rainmakers/linchpins get paid outsized amounts of money due to the processes and connections that they have and have made. Imho, they deserve it.

The company has to have a BATNA in the event that the employee demands something outrageous, but usually the best course of action is to reward them generously for sustained profitable performance. If you are lucky and skilled as an executive/manager, some of these superstars will be happy with a slightly smaller (but still relatively large) income in order to work in what is hopefully a healthy work environment.

Re:How on earth I became an entrepreneur by FredPret on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @11:57AM (#30686911)
If I owned this business, I would throw money at this employee and try and convince them to bring their peers onboard as well.

Firing/antagonizing them makes no sense.

Re:How on earth I became an entrepreneur by rileymat2 on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @11:53AM (#30686869)
What is an employee’s incentive for raising the bus factor? Outside the ability to have a real vacation?
Re:How on earth I became an entrepreneur by zamfi on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @02:06PM (#30688742)
Stock. Or, other skin in the game.
Re:How on earth I became an entrepreneur by vsareto on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @12:01PM (#30686975)
It would definitely be a good move to pay for additional hires at less than $500k unless they are writing their own $10m products; no disagreement there.
Re:How on earth I became an entrepreneur by AussieWog93 on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @10:09AM (#30685479)
Congratulations. You've just lost an employee that created a $10m/year system from scratch.
Re:How on earth I became an entrepreneur by chasd00 on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @10:19AM (#30685620)
on the other hand, if you lack the foresight to know putting your company in a position to be held ransom by a single employee is a bad idea then you deserve to go out of business.
Re:How on earth I became an entrepreneur by ipaddr on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @12:02PM (#30686994)
You were relying on the output of one person and that person leaving caused you to close that office. You were already in that boat.

By your logic having someone 2x as sucessful at sales is risky and you should let that person go.

Re:How on earth I became an entrepreneur by BizarroLand on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @12:11PM (#30687106)
True. Seems like the smart thing to do would be to "buy" the software from the employee, pay them a trivial sum in addition to their salary to train 2-3 other people to understand the software back and forwards, inside and out. That way you now have 3 people who can run the software. You made us $10m in repeating annual revenue, here's a one-time $20,000 bonus for your services (and a trophy, sure, why not?)

Builds good will, makes people happy, and secures your ownership of a product that has added tremendous value to your company. That's a win all around.

Re:How on earth I became an entrepreneur by csa on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @01:00PM (#30687767)
> train 2-3 other people to understand the software back and forwards, inside and out

I think you grossly underestimate how hard it is to find one person, much less two or three people, who can and will actually do this task diligently.

Your best hope is that the PM gets bored and wants to move on, and you let them hand pick their successor(s).

Re:How on earth I became an entrepreneur by altdataseller on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @07:00PM (#30693071)
Why is it hard to find even 1 person?
Re:How on earth I became an entrepreneur by csa on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @07:25PM (#30693295)
> Why is it hard to find even 1 person?

I’m going to paste from another reply I made in this thread:

“Knowledge documentation and transfer in reality is hard. Very few people read docs, even when they are told to and those docs are critical to their job and the business as a whole. If you do it face-to-face, it’s almost always the case that the person learning politely listens and is already making a mental list of changes (often catastrophic) that they are going to make.”

I will add that hiring competent people is hard if the company is focused on keeping compensation relatively low (as in this example) rather than rewarding their champions.

I realize that as an org gets larger, pay bands have to be a thing because mediocre-but-functional people (i.e., most “good” employees) get butthurt when a champion makes more than they do. That said, I think that many SMBs can have substantial salary variation within the employees, have those variations be reasonable, and frame it in a way that makes sense to everyone involved. That said, many chose not to do so.

Re:How on earth I became an entrepreneur by xwdv on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @10:59AM (#30686156)
Hopefully that included some documentation?
Re:How on earth I became an entrepreneur by diatone on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @10:20AM (#30685632)
Good business… ceteribus paribus. Which is to say, rarely if ever at all.