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Re:Red Hat is discontinuing sales and services in Russia and... by pmalynin on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @12:33PM (#30602771)
If a country doesn’t want to operate within the confines of international law, does not honor international agreements, does not honor its word and commits war crimes — then the word “immoral” does not apply to any action taken to punish and stop the aggressor. You cannot have it both ways. Either you operate as a Western country, with western contract law, and resolve conflicts in international courts or you go back to 1914.

This narrative of “oh my would you think of the innocent Russian people” is tiring. They’re all guilty, just like all of Germany was guilty in 1945.

Re:Red Hat is discontinuing sales and services in Russia and... by BitwiseFool on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @06:49PM (#30609030)
>"This narrative of “oh my would you think of the innocent Russian people” is tiring. They’re all guilty, just like all of Germany was guilty in 1945."

People are worried because sentiments like yours enable hate. You've literally just carte-blanche declared all Russians guilty. Even the protestors? The newborn babies? Call me hyperbolic but you were the one who said "all". Do I even need to go on about why such absolutism can lead to tragedy?

Re:Red Hat is discontinuing sales and services in Russia and... by pmalynin on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @08:52PM (#30610087)
>Do I even need to go on about why such absolutism can lead to tragedy?

They think that I and my people shouldn't exist, that my country shouldn't exist.

We already have a tragedy on our hands -- humanitarian crisis, my people being exterminated, etc. This is no time for equivocation, a vast majority (>70%) support Putin and be extension the war.

And protesting does not absolve your guilt. Ukraine has been at war since 2014.

War in Georgia was in 2008, so lets not mince words. They have supported this regime for decades.

Re:Red Hat is discontinuing sales and services in Russia and... by unmole on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @01:53AM (#30611635)
> They think that I and my people shouldn't

Who is they? Do you believe that Putin's regime is a democratic expression of the will of the Russian people?

> my people being exterminated

What the Ukrainian people are going through is absolutely horrible. But it is by no means an extermination.

> They have supported this regime for decades.

Ukraine were part of the Soviet Union for 7 decades. During this time, the Soviet Union invaded Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Afghanistan. I would still consider Ukrainians victims of the Soviet Union and not supporters.

Re:Red Hat is discontinuing sales and services in Russia and... by pmalynin on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @02:15PM (#30618765)
I think I would know better about what my people are going through and what happened do them during Soviet Rule. They already did one genocide through Holodomor, so yes my people are being exterminated thanks for your expert opinion.
Re:Red Hat is discontinuing sales and services in Russia and... by patrickaljord on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @12:54PM (#30603138)
> If a country doesn’t want to operate within the confines of international law, does not honor international agreements, does not honor its word and commits war crimes — then the word “immoral” does not apply to any action taken to punish and stop the aggressor. You cannot have it both ways.

You've just described the USA for the past 100 years here. The level of double standard here is reaching levels I've never expected before.

Re:Red Hat is discontinuing sales and services in Russia and... by michaelmrose on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @01:12PM (#30603439)
We are talking about the crime that is going on right now as we speak. Make your own submission on a century of bad behavior by America and discuss that there instead of diluting this one with whataboutism.
Re:Red Hat is discontinuing sales and services in Russia and... by pessimizer on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @01:21PM (#30603620)
Alternative: let people discuss what they like.
Re:Red Hat is discontinuing sales and services in Russia and... by rank0 on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @01:28PM (#30603734)
Are you aware the US is facilitating the ongoing war in Yemen?

It’s all about strategic interests. The US commits war crimes when it suits our agenda…just like the Russians. It’s kind of scary how much power the USG has over the world. We’ll destroy the economies of our adversaries with almost ZERO resistance. Using the term “whataboutism” doesn’t make OPs argument untrue.

Nobody in the US actually gives a shit about the Ukraine. It’s purely a strategic interest. We’re using the country as a pawn in our global political game. It’s fucked.

If we really cared about war crimes we wouldn’t constantly commit them. Why aren’t US citizens outraged by the horrific warfare that occurs on a daily basis in our world?

Re:Red Hat is discontinuing sales and services in Russia and... by brabel on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @01:58PM (#30604445)
> It’s purely a strategic interest.

The funny thing is that Ukraine is actually pretty low as far as american interests are concerned... That's why the USA will absolutely not fight in Ukraine, as it has said repeatedly before and after the war started. Which makes the whole reason for this conflict to have developed into a full scale war - Ukraine's prospect of joining NATO, causing Russia to feel itself existentially threatened as it couldn't defend itself against NATO if that happened - extremely futile. America would gain nothing by Ukraine joining NATO (assuming no desire to actually launch an attack on Russia), but Russia had a lot to lose as they absolutely expected NATO aggression (if we wanted them to believe we didn't mean to attack them, perhaps we shouldn't have continued to expand to their borders in the first place despite their extremely strongly worded protests?!).

Re:Red Hat is discontinuing sales and services in Russia and... by michaelmrose on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @02:18PM (#30604930)
NATO has never been a force for unilateral aggression its a defensive pact. Russia was never been at risk from invasion from NATO for the same reason that nobody is attacking Russia right now they fear nuclear war. Russia being threatened is a lie. A pretext for expansion by mass murder.

The entire phrase "expanding to their border" betrays a defective world view. Ukraine was considering joining a defensive pact to deter Russian aggression with obvious justification. The usage of "their border" somehow manages to imply ownership and violation. Nobody has a right to tell their neighbor they can't just a defensive pact or indeed any agreement whatsoever because of adjacency. Such deals don't take place by both parties standing on the dividing line and spitting onto Russian territory together. They take place within the respective countries capitals by their respective lawmakers.

The murderer doesn't have a right to stop his victims from conspiring to resist him.

Re:Red Hat is discontinuing sales and services in Russia and... by brabel on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @02:38PM (#30605421)
> The entire phrase "expanding to their border" betrays a defective world view.

I've never read a sentence that so clearly ignores the meaning of the words it is rejecting. When NATO includes another country, it's expanding. This is the meaning of the word "expand", to grow - adding a new country to your territory makes you grow - or expand!!

As Ukraine (as well as the Baltic states, which are already NATO) borders Russia, "expanding to the Russian borders" describes physically what it is that NATO is doing.

I use words with their current meaning without trying to spin their meaning to express something that's occurring... if you think that's a "deffective world view" then you're way too far into the play of words of politics to be able to have a serious discussion about the topic.

Re:Red Hat is discontinuing sales and services in Russia and... by type0 on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @04:56PM (#30607694)
> As Ukraine (as well as the Baltic states, which are already NATO) borders Russia

There wouldn't be any Baltic states if they weren't members allready

Re:Red Hat is discontinuing sales and services in Russia and... by speeder on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @05:00PM (#30607730)
> NATO has never been a force for unilateral aggression

Tell that to people in Iraq... Or other countries NATO been fucking with for a while now.

During cold war for example NATO-aligned countries happily went around doing coups, sometimes backed with force (for example a US aircraft carrier threatening to bomb Rio de Janeiro in case of Brazil), replacing democratically elected presidents with dictators that would do whatever NATO wanted, how that is NOT unilateral aggression? Libya is a special case even, they were doing everything NATO wanted for most part, trying to make amends and create a good relationship, and got fucked anyway, NATO even gave air cover to people commiting black genocide there, what Tawergha people did to NATO to justify its "defense"?

Re:Red Hat is discontinuing sales and services in Russia and... by istjohn on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @03:40PM (#30606550)
I don't think Russia is actually afraid of NATO aggression. They are running out of accessible gas and oil reserves, so the undeveloped wells in Ukraine are too tempting to pass up.
Re:Red Hat is discontinuing sales and services in Russia and... by patrickaljord on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @01:40PM (#30603981)
Could not have put it better. Doubt you will get any answer though.
Re:Red Hat is discontinuing sales and services in Russia and... by mvc on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @01:13PM (#30603459)
The USA at least subjects itself to elections, free press, democracy. That is the crucial difference.

Democratic systems get it wrong sometimes. No doubt.

I'm a UK citizen and disagreed with the war in Iraq waged in my name. But at least I was permitted to go out on the street and protest it. And eventually Blair was gone. And soon, so will Blowjo. But Putin has been around for long enough now, that he's starting to cause a bad smell in the world.

And it might seem unjust that Tony Blair and the rest never saw the Hague. I live in hope. But I see that what Russia is doing now is completely unacceptable regardless of how it sees the world evolving. It's democracy vs autocracy and democracy will win because if it doesn't, then what's the fucking point.

Re:Red Hat is discontinuing sales and services in Russia and... by mardifoufs on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @04:29PM (#30607329)
If anything does that not make the American people even more responsible and culpable of those war crimes since they actually have more power over their government's decisions?
Re:Red Hat is discontinuing sales and services in Russia and... by mvc on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @07:58AM (#30613921)
The point I was making was not about assigning or excusing blame to Russian or American citizens. That is as constructive as assigning blame for some IT outage.

It was highlighting the differences in the systems of government that allows for course correction when the government starts making poor decisions.

The Russian government has set itself on a course, and then shut down the processes by which that course can be altered by (restricting information, disseminating false information, arresting protestors, opposition politicians)

Re:Red Hat is discontinuing sales and services in Russia and... by patrickaljord on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @01:39PM (#30603958)
> The USA at least subjects itself to elections, free press, democracy.

If you drink the kool aid and choose to believe that, sure.

Re:Red Hat is discontinuing sales and services in Russia and... by mvc on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @01:56PM (#30604362)
As opposed to the crypto pipe you've been smoking.
Re:Red Hat is discontinuing sales and services in Russia and... by patrickaljord on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @01:59PM (#30604449)
I'm an open source contributor to crypto, it's not a pipe I can tell you that.
Re:Red Hat is discontinuing sales and services in Russia and... by wara23arish on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @03:15PM (#30606195)
Im not sure how you protesting makes a difference to all of the victims of the US wars.

You being a democracy makes no difference whatsoever.

Compare US victims of war to Russias over the last 2 decades. Tell me which seems more egregious.

This isn’t to say what russia is doing is good. But I just don’t understand how you can cast stones when your house is made of glass.