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Re:How Does This End? by scotty79 on Saturday March 05, 2022 @08:10PM (#30573912)
I think that's the point where NATO should show restraint. To not respond to nuke with a nuke.

But before that, given the apparent weakness of Russian conventional army NATO should show no restraint and pay no attention to a single word out of Putins mouth.

Basically demand from Russian system of power to deliver war criminal mr. Vladimir Putin to Hague before talks can be resumed and Russia may have any hope of loosening economic sanctions.

Re:How Does This End? by dkjaudyeqooe on Saturday March 05, 2022 @09:47PM (#30574551)
People seem to have no idea how nuclear deterrents work.

It's a matter of policy that the US will launch all its nukes if even one nuke is launched by the other side. It only makes sense that the other side would do the same.

There is no such thing as limited nuclear war. If someone launches a nuke, all nukes are launched.

And that's why nukes work, they take war to its logical conclusion: everyone dies.

The US and Russia have enough nukes to destroy the entire world many times over. It doesn't matter where you are, you'll either die quickly or slowly, but you'll die none the less.

Re:How Does This End? by scotty79 on Saturday March 05, 2022 @11:06PM (#30574940)
It makes no sense whatsoever. I don't think Putin expects that after lauching one nuke US launches thousand.

It's more flexible then that and this article specifically talks about that.

Re:How Does This End? by dkjaudyeqooe on Sunday March 06, 2022 @12:04AM (#30575181)
The US states that that is an option it make take. It does indeed make no sense, that's why it's called Mutually Assured Destruction, and it works.

If it didn't take this position, it then makes nuclear war more likely. It is actually a logical position to take since you can assume tit for tat nuclear strikes are a given, so there is no advantage to drawing it out.

It may of course not take the option, but the opponent doesn't know what it will do. It's all a part of the nuclear force being a deterrent to war.

Re:How Does This End? by scotty79 on Sunday March 06, 2022 @04:55AM (#30576345)
MAD doesn't mean what you think it means.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction

It requires only equal or greater response if the country is attacked.

It's completely within the doctrine to respond to a single nuke detonated by Putin on Ukrainian soil targetting Nato military forces, with a single Nato nuke, also on Ukrainian soil targetting Russian military forces.

Re:How Does This End? by politician on Saturday March 05, 2022 @08:35PM (#30574084)
If NATO fails to respond in kind or to escalate, then the deterrence policy has failed and everyone will be free to blackmail the West. NATO cannot show weakness in this regard. Please, think it through.
Re:How Does This End? by scotty79 on Saturday March 05, 2022 @08:40PM (#30574122)
Restraining yourself from using your most powerful weapon especially if enemy uses his is not a sign of weakness but of strength.
Re:How Does This End? by politician on Saturday March 05, 2022 @09:50PM (#30574563)
If MAD collapses, you won’t be around to say the same things from the smoldering radioactive ruins of your home town. Loss of the ability or will to retaliate at scale means death on a vast scale. Those that survive face demilitarization and slavery, forever.

MAD has protected the peace for 70 years. Going around saying that it’s best to take the morale high ground is a nice sound bite, but it is not reality. Your freedoms and lifestyle is paid for by the mutual unwillingness of a handful of governments to not destroy the Earth. This balance has been in place 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year for 70 years.

When you’re out at movies, playing soccer with your kids, or protesting some injustice, the only reason you’re able to do those things are because there are another group of far more serious people ready to glass the Russians and the Chinese if they try anything.

Re:How Does This End? by scotty79 on Saturday March 05, 2022 @10:16PM (#30574703)
Mad is about large scale simultaneous exchange of thousands of warheads.

This article clearly states that Putin won't start with all the nukes, just one, on military target or just for show.

Then NATO should condemn but not reapond likewise.

Because lack of nuclear response to such limited action does not affect MAD in any way.

And nuclear response just normalizes use of nukes.

Re:How Does This End? by politician on Saturday March 05, 2022 @10:23PM (#30574744)
A nuclear weapon is not like a bullet. A bullet doesn't leave the ground uninhabitable for a decade. A bullet doesn't level infrastructure and burn its occupants into the walls. Your approach opens the door to nuclear terrorism: maybe we lose a city every now and then, but that can't go on for very long.
Re:How Does This End? by scotty79 on Saturday March 05, 2022 @11:10PM (#30574953)
I have no idea what you are talking about right now.

MAD is only about the fact that if country is at existential threat it will respond by launching all nukes.

But neither US nor Russia is at existential threat when they lauch just a few at proxy targets.

Don't get me wrong, it's still an atrocity, but it isn't existential threat to those countries and probably won't trigger MAD.

Re:How Does This End? by politician on Sunday March 06, 2022 @08:59AM (#30577627)
The idea that a limited nuclear exchange is OK, even inevitable in this conflict, and that things will somehow magically go back to normal afterwards is ludicrous.

All leaders must know that any use of nuclear weapons will be met with the complete annihilation of their country. This is the ONLY sane policy.

Tit for tat is for bullets.

Re:How Does This End? by scotty79 on Sunday March 06, 2022 @02:32PM (#30580391)
> Tit for tat is for bullets.

Sure. That's why I'm saying that even if Putin uses one or few nuclear warheads, NATO should restrain itself and not use any, just beat Russian army in Ukraine purely with conventional and economic means.