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Re:GE won’t let me use convection roast on my new oven witho... by messe on Saturday March 05, 2022 @07:27PM (#30573564)
> God no please stop with getting the government involved, if the last 2 years have not convinced you how much they are all dim wits then I don't know what will.

Haha, tell me you're from the US without telling me from the US. Government regulation in this sector is exactly what it needs. Hell, it's one of the main reasons we managed to standardize on micro-USB for mobile devices; it was a flexible enough standardization that the industry has been able to switch to USB-C as a whole without running foul of it.

Right now there's clearly an incentive for companies to push these shitty features, whereas many consumers would consider that a downside. Regulations don't mean the complete removal of the free market, but rather the incorporation of that kind of externality into the market.

Re:GE won’t let me use convection roast on my new oven witho... by MereInterest on Saturday March 05, 2022 @09:10PM (#30574334)
> God no please stop with getting the government involved

God no please stop with the anti-regulation BS.

> The answer is don't buy the damn house it's that simple.

If you're already several months into building, with partial payments having been made, when the builder tells you that this is the only option allowed, they have you over the barrel. They've violated the social contract of providing options, and expect you to pay the cost of it. That cost is either a reduction of your choices, or needing to forgo incremental design altogether while maintaining an antagonistic relationship with your builder.

> Pay more build what you want and be happy.

The parent post already tried to pay more to build what you want. The general contractor did not allow for any other options. The free market does not work with this sort of bundling.

> People want cheap houses and this is that.

First, nowhere did the poster state that they were unwilling to pay a higher price for a functional oven. They stated that there was no other option available. Second, the term you're alluding to is "revealed preference" [0], which is a load of economic bollocks. It implies that you can entirely ignore what people state they want, the circumstances in which choices have been made, or forms of market failure (e.g. [1]).

Overall, the appropriate response to market failure, including anti-competitive deals between builders and appliance manufacturers, is to change the environment in which that market exists. Introducing regulation in order to avoid unfavorable Nash Equilibria is the role of government, in order to fix these market failures.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revealed_preference

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_small_decisions

Re:GE won’t let me use convection roast on my new oven witho... by jay_kyburz on Saturday March 05, 2022 @05:09PM (#30572437)
If your government is broken you should fix that first. Our government is our collective strength designed to protect us from the vampire overlords and blood sucking squids.
Re:GE won’t let me use convection roast on my new oven witho... by missedthecue on Saturday March 05, 2022 @07:54PM (#30573795)
Some things are fundamentally broken, not just in need of a patch.

"Simply fix the government" is useless advice.

Re:GE won’t let me use convection roast on my new oven witho... by jay_kyburz on Saturday March 05, 2022 @08:53PM (#30574212)
Didn't you learn anything from the Mozilla rewrite of 1997. Never start from scratch, always patch, patch, patch until its working. https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-...

Here are some starting patches...

First we have to make political donations anonymous and capped. Also, no money from companies, only people.

Then we need to fix the fake news problem. Make sure nobody is living in a bubble and we are all living in the same reality. (The fix is to make news the forth estate officially)

Then we need to fix the size and shape of our electorates. Much smaller. No Gerrymandering.

Also need to ditch the two party system and allow our elected representatives to vote as desired by the electorate they represent.

Also push as much power as we can down to state and city level governments. Allow states and cities to be more different to one another so that we can all learn from the successes and failures of the choices of other states. Move power closer to the people.

Re:GE won’t let me use convection roast on my new oven witho... by InitialLastName on Sunday March 06, 2022 @12:33AM (#30575289)
I don't think you're wrong in general principle, but...

> The fix is to make news the forth estate officially

It's difficult for me to see how formally establishing the main-stream media as a branch of government would do anything to improve the credibility of the news.

Re:GE won’t let me use convection roast on my new oven witho... by jay_kyburz on Sunday March 06, 2022 @12:43AM (#30575325)
If we can do it for the law and order I think we can do it for information.
Re:GE won’t let me use convection roast on my new oven witho... by InitialLastName on Sunday March 06, 2022 @12:48AM (#30575339)
I'm not saying we can't do it, I'm saying I don't see what it improves.

And just to mention, we also have problems in our society with the centralization and expanding powers of law and order in our government. Maybe that isn't the best example of "we centralized that, and now everything is OK!".

Re:GE won’t let me use convection roast on my new oven witho... by jay_kyburz on Sunday March 06, 2022 @02:43AM (#30575780)
I also suggested pushing more power down to the local state and and city councils. Less concentration.

I didn't have it in my list above, but one thing capitalism did get right is that humans are self interested and motivated by competition. We need some of that competition in our public services so that the individuals who run them can be rewarded for doing a god job (whatever that might mean.)

Re:GE won’t let me use convection roast on my new oven witho... by kalleboo on Saturday March 05, 2022 @08:18PM (#30573965)
Not any less useless than "customers simply need to make better/more principled choices"
Re:GE won’t let me use convection roast on my new oven witho... by missedthecue on Saturday March 05, 2022 @09:47PM (#30574548)
I'm not sure how you arrive at that conclusion. An individual choosing between two products on the shelf is much simpler than an individual changing government.

For instance if I think scrapping the department of energy would make things work better, how can I get that done?

I can't. It's impossible. If HP doesn't make a laptop I like however, I can buy a Dell.

Re:GE won’t let me use convection roast on my new oven witho... by LordDragonfang on Sunday March 06, 2022 @02:22PM (#30580289)
Besides the obviously classist implications of voting with your wallet (i.e. people with bigger wallets get more votes, vimes' boot theory, etc) we also already have evidence that it just doesn't work in this specific type of product. Go ahead and try going to Best Buy and getting a non-smart TV. You can't, because once one manufacturer comes up with a dark pattern, they all copy it. "Consumer choice" is an illusion for almost everything these days.
Re:GE won’t let me use convection roast on my new oven witho... by missedthecue on Sunday March 06, 2022 @04:06PM (#30581256)
Searching "Dumb TV" on the best buy site brings up plenty of models. I went into the reviews of the first few to verify they were in fact non smart models.

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/searchpage.jsp?st=Dumb+tv&_dync...

Re:GE won’t let me use convection roast on my new oven witho... by Angostura on Saturday March 05, 2022 @08:01PM (#30573847)
Presumably you'd liek to repeal all consumer protection and environmental protection laws. Sheesh.
Re:GE won’t let me use convection roast on my new oven witho... by root_axis on Saturday March 05, 2022 @07:21PM (#30573510)
> if the last 2 years have not convinced you how much they are all dim wits then I don't know what will.

If you have specific problems with my suggestion as proposed I'd be happy to discuss the details, but "I don't like Biden" is not a convincing argument against the concept of regulations.

In my view, an oven that needs wifi to operate correctly crosses a line from creative business strategy into corporate abuse, nobody wants to live in a world where you need to login to a corporate website to cook your meals, but this is a completely plausible reality that we have the power to avoid if we agree that we don't have to live that way. I think regulation works well here too because the undesirable behavior is clear and easy to target legally without much possibility for unintended consequences. Further, this is a new trend that hasn't become widespread (yet), so getting rid of it now won't be disruptive to existing businesses.

For microwaves and toasters this kind of thing isn't a big deal because they're small and cheap, but stationary appliances like stoves and ovens are appliances that can't simply be replaced on a dime, they are investments meant to last many years and in practice they often operate as part of the home itself and can see multiple owners throughout their lifetimes. Not to mention, the rental and housing market is absolutely insane right now and for the foreseeable future, the vast majority of people do not have the luxury to quibble over the type of oven installed in their home assuming it is otherwise functional and sanitary. Or, more likely, they won't have any idea about this detail until its too late.

Re:GE won’t let me use convection roast on my new oven witho... by JaimeThompson on Saturday March 05, 2022 @07:31PM (#30573589)
It isn't a binary yes/no question.
Re:GE won’t let me use convection roast on my new oven witho... by kbelder on Saturday March 05, 2022 @07:22PM (#30573519)
2?

It's pretty close to 222 years.

Re:GE won’t let me use convection roast on my new oven witho... by mindslight on Saturday March 05, 2022 @07:29PM (#30573575)
The past 2 years of GDPR enforcement has looked halfway encouraging. As a libertarian, I still really cannot think of any other way to prevent our individual liberties from being destroyed by the surveillance industry.

Maybe in some alternative universe where the government never mandated social security numbers, driver's license numbers, birth certificates, or laws against "fraud" for using narrowly-scoped nyms. Where the economic treadmill wasn't run so hard, so people had time to practice good digital hygiene like installing Adblock and the advertising industry never developed. But that's not the world we're staring down, and we only get one.

Re:GE won’t let me use convection roast on my new oven witho... by chrissnell on Saturday March 05, 2022 @07:13PM (#30573443)
Thank you. Getting the government involved in this with simply create more government jobs, more waste, more pensions, and most importantly, homes that cost more. Politicians love to talk regulation that sounds really good to the average person on the street, but the average person on the street has no idea what that really means on the backend.
Re:GE won’t let me use convection roast on my new oven witho... by root_axis on Saturday March 05, 2022 @07:53PM (#30573794)
Imagine how cheap homes would be if there were no regulations at all!