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Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by heikkilevanto on Thursday March 03, 2022 @08:02AM (#30540374)
Not so quick. Finland and Sweden have not (yet?) joined NATO. There has been quite some discussion, especially in Finland. The public opinion has tilted towards joining NATO, and maybe we will. Such things take time.
Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by sgjohnson on Thursday March 03, 2022 @08:05AM (#30540406)
Doesn’t really matter. Finland and Sweden can join NATO in an instant. Their forces are compatible, and they meet all of the entry requirements.
Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by aynyc on Thursday March 03, 2022 @08:15AM (#30540526)
It does matter. Putin can invade Finland and Sweden now, and NATO can’t do anything other than supply weapons. If Finland and Sweden are in NATO, article 5 is automatically triggered and NATO will have to respond militarily immediately.
Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by modo_mario on Thursday March 03, 2022 @08:25AM (#30540650)
You forget that these countries are in the EU which has it's own mutual defence clause.
Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by koheripbal on Thursday March 03, 2022 @08:29AM (#30540700)
Not really. It has an "assistance" clause which does not say anything about military assistance.

It was left intentionally vague.

Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by shawabawa3 on Thursday March 03, 2022 @08:54AM (#30540992)
The clause says "members must assist with all the means in their power" or similar wording.

Whatever lawyers decide that clause means, I think the odds of outright invasion of an EU member _not_ leading to open european/world war is basically zero

Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by aynyc on Thursday March 03, 2022 @09:58AM (#30541846)
I didn't. EU mutual defense is loosely defined by lawyers. If EU wants to declare war on Russia, they need NATO and most importantly, Americans. I don't want to knock on Western Europe on military, but without Americans' command and control, as well as logistic support, I don't think EU can mount any substantial military troop movements quickly in respond to an invasion.
Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by sgjohnson on Thursday March 03, 2022 @08:27AM (#30540673)
And that Putin probably won’t try invading anything for a while now.
Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by chinathrow on Thursday March 03, 2022 @08:49AM (#30540933)
I am not so sure.

The way Russia put in their lousy equipment and untrained staff (if all the reports are to be believed) then his better troops and weapons are not yet there / ready for other use.

Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by denis1 on Thursday March 03, 2022 @09:14AM (#30541272)
Or... there aren't better troops and weapons?

Hear me out. Russia is corrupt to the core with leadership that's only focused on enriching themselves.

It wouldn't surprise me if their conventional military proved to be way less capable then they're presenting it to be.

Sure, they have enough smart people that are able to design advanced weaponry, but do they have the industrial capacity to actually build? And do they have the capability to maintain it? How about troop training?

Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by sgjohnson on Thursday March 03, 2022 @02:03PM (#30545246)
They probably don’t. As with almost all modern dictatorships, the military is there to protect the elites from the general populace, and is not fit for much more purpose. Besides Russia doesn’t have to worry about external invaders, because they have their nuclear deterrent. So the state of their military makes perfect sense.

Can’t risk a military coup.

Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by aynyc on Thursday March 03, 2022 @10:06AM (#30541956)
No one knows for sure. Also, if Putin survives this whole Ukraine mess, who's to say he won't try again in 5 years? The point being, the narrative of business is usual is gone. All the countries that are next to or depend on Russia can no longer count on money or appeasement.

Nordic and countries next to Russia have to rethink their strategy. Maybe they decide to wait and see the next strong man from Russia will be and negotiate with them. But PEACE based purely on the words of a mad man is precursor for war.

Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by hdjjhhvvhga on Thursday March 03, 2022 @08:49AM (#30540938)
> Putin can invade Finland and Sweden now

I can understand that he was lied to, and/or he miscalculated the power of his own army. But at this point it should be clear even to him it's a complete mess and they are being ridiculed by the whole world - outdated equipment, weak morale, soldiers without food, no fuel, sinking tanks. Do they really want to be humiliated by the Nordics? I really doubt so.

My take is that Finland and Sweeden will wait a bit to see how the situation develops, and if Putin starts to bark about enlarging the invasion, they will join in a blink.

Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by mpfundstein on Thursday March 03, 2022 @09:09AM (#30541201)
where do you get your information from? it seems as if you are severly misinformed
Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by nicce on Thursday March 03, 2022 @10:23AM (#30542178)
We (everyone) have a pretty good look on what is happening, and even propaganda can't hide that. This was designed to be a fast invasion. Everything is pointing into that, relying on the surrender of Ukraine's citizens and military. It failed and we can see consequences.
Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by mpfundstein on Thursday March 03, 2022 @01:30PM (#30544762)
and where precisely is russia failing? did you see their advancements?

you recall how long it took to take Bagdad right? you really think Putin thought this will be over in a week?

come on.

Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by nicce on Thursday March 03, 2022 @01:38PM (#30544860)
They have rockets, hundreds of aircraft, thousands of tanks and yet the advancement is so slow. Their logistics have failed and there is clearly no proper communication. Well, eventually you win which such a force.

Take a note that US came from overseas, yet they had superior logistics. They also advanced hunderds of kilometers in week inside Irak, Russia is still quite stuck close to thr borders. They just got their fist major city.

Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by mpfundstein on Thursday March 03, 2022 @03:40PM (#30546652)
"just got their first major city". after not even a week

also, did you notice that they rarely kill civilians? i am by no means trying to defend them, but I have the feeling (!) that this is on purpose. and this might slow down operations. for instance today, they agreed for ceasefire and a refugee corridor. that will again take days probably. We should not forget that Ukraine is the birthplace of Russian culture. Ukraine is essential to the identity of Russia. They won't just carpet bomb it and call it a day. If anything of the stuff that Putin and his professors have written is what they truly believe, then we can assume that Russia doesn't want to annihilate the Ukrainians.

lastly, ukraine is HUGE. its bigger than France. And tanks roll slowly. Still, Russia will very soon circle Kiew and then its a siege until Ukraine gives up. No matter how many weapons they get. No stuff will get in and out. Civilians will hopefully have left already so women and kids don't have to starve.

all of this is my own opinion and I might be totally wrong.

Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by nicce on Thursday March 03, 2022 @08:06AM (#30540418)
And it is very dangerous question right now. What will Putin do if they consider joining, just before agreenment? Instead of eliminating one country, he might have lost three countries for Nato instead. Will he send some small warning Nukes into Finland as last hope?
Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by ajuc on Thursday March 03, 2022 @08:09AM (#30540458)
> Will he send some small warning Nukes into Finland as last hope?

What would that accomplish? Fins would just join NATO even faster.

Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by nicce on Thursday March 03, 2022 @08:28AM (#30540689)
I doubt it. Russia might go all in.

Because of the geopolitics and strategical requirements of missiles, Russia loses nuclear war (in terms of response time ) if Sweden and Finland joins to NATO. Russia might go very far to prevent that.

There is a little seed of truth in their security claims, that Ukraine should stay neutral.

Missiles around country in close positions means, that West has better likelihood to win nuclear war with first strike, eliminating the most nukes from Russia. Especially, since they think that US is the enemy. And they want to hit US which is very far.

Russia loses their nuclear threat advantage, if other countries can position their missiles better, to reach far better damage with first strike.

This is the core of Cuban crisis, and why there are so many bombs, in submarines as well. Russia needs to believe that there is a balance.

Stakes are high.

Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by ajuc on Thursday March 03, 2022 @08:43AM (#30540841)
> Because of the geopolitics and strategical requirements of missiles, Russia loses nuclear war

Nothing Russia can do changes that. They know that. We know that. They know we know.

It's all just a game of chicken. And for Russia to win they would have to go all in 100 times in a row. Whereas NATO wins if nothing changes.

So they won't go all in. It's just a matter of NATO deciding where the final line on sand is. I think we're witnessing it being drawn and Putin mistakenly thought he can do a few more steps.

Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by nicce on Thursday March 03, 2022 @09:33AM (#30541511)
> Nothing Russia can do changes that. They know that. We know that. They know we know.

They need at least a little illusion that there is at least balance. This is about Putin’s power and their narrative. All decisions are based on the fact that Putin will stay in power and looks strong leader.

Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by hdjjhhvvhga on Thursday March 03, 2022 @08:54AM (#30540995)
> Russia loses nuclear war (in terms of response time )

Could you elaborate on that?

NATO will not strike first. I understand you can respond to ICBMs but there's very little you can do to protect your cites against them. So what do you mean by "losing nuclear war"? Even if 10% of Soviet nuclear equipment still works, that still means hundreds of nukes. The only "winners"* would be China, South America and Africa, not Russia.

* good luck living through nuclear winter

Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by nicce on Thursday March 03, 2022 @09:29AM (#30541447)
> NATO will not strike first. I understand you can respond to ICBMs but there's very little you can do to protect your cites against them.

It does not matter from Russian perspective. Anyway, cities are just third priority. Opponent’s nukes and command centers are the fist priority.

If you can place enough nukes close enough, so that response time is very low, then first strike might paralyze nation and there is no response at all.

Russia needs to consider this, regardless of narrative who strikes first.

Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by omega3 on Thursday March 03, 2022 @01:23PM (#30544681)
> Russia needs to believe that there is a balance.

I really hope we shed this mentality of appeasement and catering to unfounded "needs". It doesn't work and never did.

Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by Rastonbury on Thursday March 03, 2022 @11:18PM (#30550651)
There is no 'winning' a nuclear war, once it starts everyone loses. Retaliation from either side will be immediate because no one knows what will be left once the other sides nukes land. The submarines are not going to be asked to wait and see if enemy nukes make it.
Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by BurningPenguin on Thursday March 03, 2022 @08:25AM (#30540651)
Finland and Sweden are EU countries. Attacking them would invoke EU defense treaties. I really hope Putin isn't that stupid.
Re:Russia Cannot Win The War by jacknews on Thursday March 03, 2022 @09:12AM (#30541249)
Also Putin is nearly 70. Perhaps with undeclared health conditions. Time could be running out to complete his ambitions.