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Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by zozbot234 on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @05:11PM (#30520749)
It's so disappointing to see in the article that caste discrimination is still being blamed by some on the religion of Hinduism. There's no dharmic status whatsoever for "caste" in the commonplace sense. The Vedas occasionally talk about something that gets misinterpreted as caste, but it's very clear from the texts that they're talking about individual callings and aptitudes, and not any sort of immutable status. The latter were merely a historically contingent development within Indian society, very similar to those that were leading towards feudalism and serfdom in the West.
Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by simmanian on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @05:24PM (#30520882)
I think it's fair to say that the caste system is greatly influenced by the flavor of reincarnation in hinduism and vice versa. the buddha himself set out to seek enlightenment and free himself from suffering when he saw that so many people from the lower castes are suffering. it eventually led him to reject hinduism and teach that nobody suffers in this life because of something that happened in "past" lives (in fact, he almost categorically rejected reincarnation as a process where individuals are born again and again, something many buddhists today do not understand), that everyone can attain true freedom and happiness. I assume this teaching is why Ambedkar came to reject hinduism and embrace buddhism as shown in the article.
Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by tsol on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @09:27PM (#30522938)
You'd be surprised by the diversity in Buddhism. Once I got a book on Buddhism and was reading it in front of my Indian Muslim parents. They gave me a strange look and asked me if I was going to convert. I laughed and explained, as a western educated person does, that Buddhism is more like a philosophy than a religion and that they don't actually pray to the Buddha. My mom laughed and said the Buddhists in her village would pray to the Buddha every day and give sacraments to the statue. This is when I realized that everyday folk religion is very different from what you find in books and summaries. No one goes around telling Buddhists in obscure small villages that they're not supposed to pray to the Buddha. If anything, the idea that the Buddha isn't a god like figure comes more from a western understanding of Buddhism that tries to summarize the global collection of practices into a single ethos
Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by zozbot234 on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @09:22PM (#30522911)
Reincarnation does not involve the ordinary notion of "individuals'" personal identity in Hinduism properly understood, only a generalized awareness called 'Atman', which is indistinguishable from the universal awareness called Brahman. The belief in personal identity is decried in Hinduism as one of many attachments that lead directly to suffering and the cycle of Samsara. Buddhism has a very similar understanding, except that they go as far as to pragmatically even discourage any belief in Atman because it's believed that this will not be useful, but will only cause attachment and suffering. "Universal" awareness and liberation from suffering is instead sought mainly as a direct experience via stream entry, which is only one of many avenues in Hinduism and not privileged over others.

There are plenty of folk superstitions in both Hinduism and Buddhism, so it's not impossible that some folks may have believed what you wrote above at some point. But the actual agreed-upon views are pretty clear.

Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by kumarvvr on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @09:04PM (#30522777)
What are you talking?

https://www.learnreligions.com/reincarnation-in-buddhism-449...

Buddhism has a similar concept, named and understood differently.

Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by phyzix5761 on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @08:17PM (#30522426)
As a Theravadan Buddhist I can say you are mistaken. There is the concept of rebirth in Buddhism and dependent origination which starts with actions that happened in the past. Including actions in past lives. In fact, there are multiple realms where one can be reborn like heaven, human, animal, hungry ghost, hell, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theravada#Core_teachings

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_cosmology

Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by TulliusCicero on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @02:10AM (#30524628)
There's a difference between what's written in holy books for any religion and how that religion plays out in practice. Tons of Catholic beliefs and practices are to be found nowhere in the Bible, for example. Ditto for both Sunni and Shia Islam and the Koran.

But when people leave a religion, they're not just leaving what the religion is on paper, because that's not what anyone engages with. They're leaving how the religion operates in practice, and that includes how people practice that religion day to day.

Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by kumarvvr on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @09:02PM (#30522759)
Because it is easy to do so.

Western media is extremely India phobic and Hindu phobic.

The caste system, as per scriptures, is just a categorization of work that people do. Every one is prescribed their duties and jobs as per caste. However, there are innumerable instances in the scriptures when people have taken up jobs of other castes, as per situation demands.

The discrimination of people based on castes, is an invention of society and its degradation.

However, I often find that an ingrained sense of "my religion is holier than thou" leads to a subtle thread of anti-Hindu outputs.

Some publications are blatant. Some are not.

Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by throwaway_281 on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @05:18AM (#30525756)
> The caste system, as per scriptures, is just a categorization of work that people do.

This is blatantly false. Can you cite me some?

Even the Lord Rama killed Shambuka because he wanted to learn the Vedas as a Sudra.

Another incident I don't remember from the Mahabharata where one person was keen for reaching brahminic status. And that was denied. And was said as an example.

> there are innumerable instances in the scriptures when people have taken up jobs of other castes, as per situation demands.

Cite me two or three.

And please don't say Parshuram being a warrior or Viswamitra being a sage. Both were upper caste Brahmin or Kshatriya.

All religions are bad. Degree varies.

Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by zozbot234 on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @07:26AM (#30526559)
The story of Shambuka is thought by many to be an unreliable interpolation within the Ramayana. And even then, Shambuka's violation of dharma is said to involve his improper performing of tapas, a kind of ascetic penance that's often criticized in both Buddhism and Hinduism; certainly, it's not considered universally good. It's not to be confused with meditation or reflection in a general sense, of which we are even told wrt. the Shudras that live in the forest (i.e. pursuing Vanaprastha).

(To top it all, apparently there's even a tradition which says the wise Shambuka ultimately managed to perfect his dharma by means of Rama's intervention, whilst the Brahmins who had requested that very intervention are criticized. Thus adding all sorts of nuances to the story that can hardly be described as "casteist".)

Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by fastball on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @08:04PM (#30522329)
> it's very clear from the texts

Not sure that applies to any religious text ever. Regardless, it is clearly not clear, since people are misinterpreting it.

Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by throwaway_281 on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @05:21AM (#30525768)
This person is spreading propaganda.

Read Manu Smriti, Yajnabalka Smriti, or Parashara Smriti.

You can find them online.

In Bhagavad Gita, there are no verses that directly say bad things about so-called lower castes, but liberation is offered to people "even if" the seeker is a woman, a son of a prostitute, or a "dog-eating lower caste".

The Hindu scriptures themselves are casteist and sexist.

Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by throwaway_281 on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @05:14AM (#30525729)
> There's no dharmic status whatsoever for "caste" in the commonplace sense

I have read many verses from Manu Smriti, Parashara Smriti, and Yajnabalka Smriti.

They are ripe with casteism.

In Vedas, too, it is mentioned that Sudras are created from the feet of Purusha, and Brahmins from the head.

And also, Mahabharata mentions that brahmins can't face capital punishment. The most that can be done is banishing them.

Indian scriptures are deeply casteist and sexist, too.

Hinduism itself should be blamed for casteism.

Even Buddha fought against casteism.

Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by zozbot234 on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @06:27AM (#30526129)
The varnas are not castes, they're social occupations, aptitudes or callings. They're very close to the Confucian idea of the "four categories of the people", or to the tripartite social division (First, Second and Third Estate) that's thought to be rooted ultimately in Indo-European belief systems, and is well known in the West. You might as well suggest that the modern "secular" Western idea of a "Fourth Estate" of influencers-intellectuals writing in the popular press (who definitely have "sacred cows" of their own, so ironically brought out in full display in this Wired article - while a tradition encompassing thousands of years is carelessly disparaged with such false and outrageous claims) is itself casteist.
Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by jelliclesfarm on Friday March 04, 2022 @03:32AM (#30552128)
>[..]In Vedas, too, it is mentioned that Sudras are created from the feet of Purusha[..]

That is the varna system. There is no caste system in Vedas or in Hinduism.

The same verse from Purusha Suktam also appears in Zoroastrian Avesta Yasna and the Pahlavi Denkard.

‘Caste’ comes from ‘Casta’, a Portuguese word.

Now…what does it mean by allocating different parts of the body to different categories of people?

‘Purusha’ is the cosmic man. Before the gods were created, there was Purusha. The gods themselves came from the sacrifice of Purusha. The immortality of gods was granted to them because they were willing to sacrifice themselves for the mortals/humanity. So every time they perished, they were resurrected.

The concept of yagna in Hinduism symbolises the sacrifice of the gods. Vedas say that our lives too are a sacrifice. We live and we die. We merge with a universal consciousness. When we are no different from this universal consciousness, we are resurrected too. That is the principle of reincarnation. In sacrifice, we will find our resurrection.

The sacrifice of a god and the resurrection of said god is a recurring theme in many faiths and religions.

The Purusha Suktam is a poem about sacrifice of The Cosmic Man. He has a thousand heads and a thousand limbs. And how his sacrifice comes down as the five elementals of fire, air, earth, water and space. From these, all of creation is born..as earth and skies, planets and stars, forests, oceans, land forms. This disembodied Cosmic Man enters as sunshine and rain. Plants, mammals, birds and insects are created. And then so is man..sun becomes the soul and moon becomes the mind. Seven sheaths of gross matter is formed as the physical bodies..from his body, the four varnas are created so man can create division of labour. Nowhere is caste mentioned. Nor do the Vedas ask people to discriminate against each other.

A Brahmin lives on charity and studies Vedic knowledge for teaching and for the world benefit. A Kshatriya takes that knowledge and implements it as a ruler. A Vaishya takes care of the material needs that fuels the system. The Shudra works and creates what society needs.

The varna system reflects the four purusharthas: dharma, artha, kama, moksha. The Brahmin has to uphold Dharma(divine law). The Kshatriya has to deliver artha(material goals) according to Dharma. Vaishya and Shudra are motivated by artha and kama(material goals and desires). Moksha is for anyone who seeks it..and hence for everyone.

Brahmin lives on charity but is bound by religious rules and regulations. Kshatriya has power, but also has duty. Should be ready to fight and die to protect his people. Vaishya is free to accumulate wealth but also has responsibility to fund the entire society. Shudra only needs to work to take care of his desires, has to bear burden of labour and owes nothing to anyone. This system worked as there were many small manageable kingdoms and there was conformity. Conformity means less conflict. There was mobility between small kingdoms that if one was allergic to the homogeneity, there was another place to belong to..until the Muslim invaders came first abs then British raj came and got rid of the kingdoms.

Now Brahmins had to work and Kings were useless. Merchants were burdened to pay dictators and invaders and colonial masters. Resources were diminished and there was no more fair redistribution of available resources. It was a survival game now. The solid foundation and implicit safety net was gone. Every one of the varnas has one benefit and one handicap. So each one depended on the other three and peaceful balance was easier to maintain.

It’s like a game of Jenga. Take away one piece and everything comes crumbling down. Invasions and colonialism keep pulling pieces all the time but the system was self healing. Until it wasn’t.

You are mistaken. There is no caste in Hinduism. Purusha suktam is about the sacrifice of The Cosmic Man. It appears in the Rig Veda and also in other religions of that time. Hinduism is the only surviving polytheistic religion. It draws ire because of it’s very existence. It’s a threat abs irritant to the monotheistic faiths because of its foundational difference of opinion wrt individual soul, consciousness and it’s place in the universe.

Monotheism cannot erase Hinduism although there has been efforts to tarnish its core. Yes..Purusha Suktam is part of Hindu scriptures. Varna is mentioned. Caste isn’t. Social edits to a religious text is someone else’s responsibility. That is collateral damage due to civilizational pressures.

Hinduism is not for everyone. And that’s ok. There are many religions in the world. And different faiths. As well as atheism and agnosticism and ignosticism. But I don’t think a casual assassination of the Hindu faith that is followed by approximately one billion people is warranted or should be condoned due to incomplete religious literacy.

Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by unmole on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @01:43AM (#30524479)
Oh, please. The Ramayana and Mahabharata endorse caste based on birth. Vedas are irrelevant to how Hindusim is practiced on a day to day basis.
Re:Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system by throwaway_281 on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @05:22AM (#30525772)
It is mentioned in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishads that brahmins were born from the head of the Purusha and the Sudras from His feet.

Dalits are even outside of these four varnas.