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Re:Panasonic to begin mass producing new 4680 Tesla battery ... by Gravityloss on Monday February 28, 2022 @08:44AM (#30499714)
This cylindrical form factor might make sense for batteries that have thermal runaway potential, to keep the unit size small so that the whole battery doesn't go into thermal runaway, only one cell.

But for LFP or iron based batteries which don't have such issues, the blade design should be cheaper, more maintainable, more space and weight efficient etc. There's no glue so you can actually just switch individual blades. Cooling channels can be straight.

Re:Panasonic to begin mass producing new 4680 Tesla battery ... by vardump on Monday February 28, 2022 @09:11AM (#30499956)
Isn't cylindrical form factor simply easier and cheaper to manufacture? Decades of industry experience manufacturing a ton of cylindrical products.
Re:Panasonic to begin mass producing new 4680 Tesla battery ... by colejohnson66 on Monday February 28, 2022 @08:47AM (#30499734)
Assuming this image I found online is of 4680s, there’s quite a bit of wasted space: https://www.teslarati.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/tesla-4...
Re:Panasonic to begin mass producing new 4680 Tesla battery ... by Goz3rr on Monday February 28, 2022 @09:23AM (#30500083)
The actual arrangement of cylindrical cells is staggered: https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/XkV66/s1/tesla-model-y-468...
Re:Panasonic to begin mass producing new 4680 Tesla battery ... by Gravityloss on Monday February 28, 2022 @09:51AM (#30500409)
Exactly. Sandy Munro has an excellent video with multiple different battery packs torn down and compared: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JiDZVO9NdM

You can see that the cooling channels in the Tesla pack are these hollow undulating aluminum shapes. Can imagine they're not very cheap. Also the Tesla packs are filled with some kind of bonding foam, making repairs near impossible.

Re:Panasonic to begin mass producing new 4680 Tesla battery ... by Tempest1981 on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:38AM (#30500971)
> bonding foam

Is that maybe to reduce the spread of fire? I know Tesla put a lot of work into that. Others too, I hope.

Re:Panasonic to begin mass producing new 4680 Tesla battery ... by hinkley on Monday February 28, 2022 @02:24PM (#30503855)
I suspect the original picture is from either the end of the assembly line or a shipping facility. Your first clue that it’s not in a pack is the lack of connections between the batteries. Nobody makes an all parallel pack. 3V at how many amps would be too hot. They wire a bunch in series to triple digit voltages and then comment those packs together in parallel.

You could probably ship them staggered, but I’m betting they are at a weight limit anyway so making them more dense doesn’t save you anything.

Re:Panasonic to begin mass producing new 4680 Tesla battery ... by cma on Monday February 28, 2022 @11:15AM (#30501536)
Why not use two size tiers of cylindrical cells, smaller ones to fill in the gaps? With only one size the empty space ratio is the same.
Re:Panasonic to begin mass producing new 4680 Tesla battery ... by Armisael16 on Monday February 28, 2022 @12:52PM (#30502737)
It definitely isn’t the same. The square packing in the first picture uses pi/4 ~ 79% of the space; the second uses pi/(2*sqrt(3)) ~ 91% of the space.

They don’t bother with smaller secondary batteries because the extra manufacturing cost and operational complexity isn’t worth it for a 5%-10% bump in volumetric energy density.

Re:Panasonic to begin mass producing new 4680 Tesla battery ... by hinkley on Monday February 28, 2022 @02:27PM (#30503913)
Didn’t someone prove about 15 years ago that there’s an oval shape that packs tighter still? Given the hollow core that could probably be done, but cylinders are probably easier for the assembly line to handle. So then it comes down to whether that space is being utilized (for cooling, or weight per cubic inch of the support structure).
Re:Panasonic to begin mass producing new 4680 Tesla battery ... by cma on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:15PM (#30508940)
I think there are a couple companies with hollow designs for improving surface area for cooling, or at least patents around it.
Re:Panasonic to begin mass producing new 4680 Tesla battery ... by cma on Monday February 28, 2022 @02:01PM (#30503577)
I didn't mean to say the two packings were the same. 90% is better than I thought circle packing was though, I've mostly seen multi-scale packing used in thermal pastes and stuff and it is probably a bigger difference in 3d sphere packing.
Re:Panasonic to begin mass producing new 4680 Tesla battery ... by dahfizz on Monday February 28, 2022 @08:54AM (#30499799)
Volumetric efficiency is not a big concern for EVs. They already have more storage than an equivalent ICE vehicle (frunk, no trans tunnel, etc). Giving up space for better weight and cooling is worth it.
Re:Panasonic to begin mass producing new 4680 Tesla battery ... by meragrin_ on Monday February 28, 2022 @08:53AM (#30499783)
Isn't some of that "wasted" space necessary for cooling the batteries?
Re:Panasonic to begin mass producing new 4680 Tesla battery ... by trainsarebetter on Monday February 28, 2022 @09:01AM (#30499861)
offset every row and significant reduction in “wasted space” also cooling is a huge part of what makes these work. We have to stop looking at battery’s from purely a cell level. Add in the structural element, and the claim is they are now more volumetric and weight efficient than traditional packs.
Re:Panasonic to begin mass producing new 4680 Tesla battery ... by kube-system on Monday February 28, 2022 @09:10AM (#30499954)
Sounds like the form factor Toyota has used in their NiMH packs for basically forever. They’re surprisingly serviceable for DIYers.
Re:Panasonic to begin mass producing new 4680 Tesla battery ... by mrfusion on Monday February 28, 2022 @09:29AM (#30500166)
So Toyota still uses nimh in its hybrids? Does that make them longer lasting?
Re:Panasonic to begin mass producing new 4680 Tesla battery ... by kube-system on Monday February 28, 2022 @09:42AM (#30500295)
They currently use some of both NiMh and Li-ion. Toyota is notoriously conservative when choosing technologies. My guess is they still use a lot of NiMH because they have proven long-term reliability, more forgiving characteristics in harsh use, and they already have a lot of existing tooling to support them.

If there any single car that has made the general public comfortable with very expensive batteries in their car: it’s the Prius.

Re:Panasonic to begin mass producing new 4680 Tesla battery ... by ButchC on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:23AM (#30500771)
All those things are true when comparing NiMH to NiCd but definitely not compared to lithium batteries. There's not a single metric for which you can't find a superior suitable lithium chemistry. Except for one: $Cost

Just Toyota doing Toyota things.

Also I would strongly disagree on the Prius comment. A lot of "HV battery fault" cars out there back in the day, refurbing them was a pretty good business for a while. The NiMH pack in the Prius was the basis for so many slack jawed comments "EVs will never work! You're just going to have to replace the battery every 5 years!"

Re:Panasonic to begin mass producing new 4680 Tesla battery ... by kube-system on Monday February 28, 2022 @01:14PM (#30503016)
Cost, as you mentioned, is one reason. However they also fare better at extended temperature ranges and under long periods of self discharge. They are, generally speaking, more forgiving of a battery chemistry.

Your quote about rollout of the Prius is exactly my point. That opinion was widespread when the Prius was introduced. The reliability of the Prius since then has changed public opinion greatly.

Re:Panasonic to begin mass producing new 4680 Tesla battery ... by ButchC on Monday February 28, 2022 @03:40PM (#30504834)
None of that makes any sense. What are you using as the basis for those statements? I feel like I'm hearing doublespeak where down is up.

NiMH infamously has HORRIBLE self discharge performance in comparison to pretty much any lithium chemistry.

Multiple lithium chemistries outperform NiMH in low temperature performance. Even LFP which is generally not recommended for unregulated conditions below about -10 degree will function at reduced capacity at -40c. Nearly all chemistries, except maybe LMO, have superior high temperature performance.

I also don't understand what you mean by more forgiving chemistry?

Production yields? Modern lithium cell plants can easily do 80%+

Tolerance to production variations? Multiple lithium chemistries are just as tolerant.

Fire/puncture resistance? Multiple lithium chemistries areas as safe or safer

Voltaic efficiency/Energy Efficiency/etc? Lithium chemistries are SIGNIFICANTLY better

Memory effect or reduced voltage? NIMH yes while lithium none

Cycle life? Once again nearly every lithium chemistry is superior. Some even still have acceptable performance after an order of magnitude more cycles than a NiMH cell.

At this point there is literally no reason someone would chose NiMH for a ground up design in a consumer vehicle other than cost ....seriously like none.

Also yes Prius reliability is pretty good, but the reliability and performance of the NiMH battery packs were not even in the range for what would be acceptable in a commercially successful EV.

At the time when commercial lithium batteries were $1000-$5000/kwh hour sure they were a fantastic compromise, but it's not even close now.

If Tesla had started with NiMH they would have been dead meat right out of the gate. Gone out of business in a couple years at most.

Re:Panasonic to begin mass producing new 4680 Tesla battery ... by kube-system on Monday February 28, 2022 @07:44PM (#30507524)
I was comparing specifically to Li-Ion in the comment above. As to why major automakers are not using LiFePO4 or other chemistries in their cars, I don’t know, but it’s not anything that makes Toyota unique, which was what I was talking about.

There are, for sure, a tons of great lithium chemistries in existence. But, outside of some very specific markets, they are not used in cars yet.

Re:Panasonic to begin mass producing new 4680 Tesla battery ... by numpad0 on Monday February 28, 2022 @09:53AM (#30500427)
There isn’t tons of reported cases of exploding Prius, or premature failures in general, that’s for sure.
Re:Panasonic to begin mass producing new 4680 Tesla battery ... by stetrain on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:09AM (#30500617)
My understanding is Tesla currently uses cylindrical cells for NCA packs and blade/prismatic cells for LFP battery packs.
Re:Panasonic to begin mass producing new 4680 Tesla battery ... by konspence on Monday February 28, 2022 @10:22AM (#30500763)
How would a cylindrical shape isolate thermal runaway to one cell?
Re:Panasonic to begin mass producing new 4680 Tesla battery ... by snovv_crash on Monday February 28, 2022 @02:15PM (#30503736)
During fire they vent from one end, not in the middle. So this directs any flames away from adjacent cells.