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Re:Why the West is reluctant to deny Russian banks access to... by pgeorgi on Friday February 25, 2022 @03:11PM (#30471782)
> The reason why Germany hasn’t stopped buying gas from Russia is

The reason why Germany hasn't stopped buying gas is because there are 12 million gas heaters spread across the country, heating 20 million homes (nearly 50% of housing).

We currently bring up 150k heat pumps a year (mostly in new developments). At that rate it takes some 60-80 years to convert all existing gas guzzling real estate over to electric heating.

> because, despite being a massive (the most massive?) solar and renewable economy, those don’t work very well during the winter.

Last I checked it's winter and we just broke wind power records, multiple times in a row. Wind power has approximately the same installed capacity as solar (60GW each). But it still doesn't help those gas heaters keep people warm.

Re:Why the West is reluctant to deny Russian banks access to... by lazide on Friday February 25, 2022 @03:15PM (#30471832)
Another reason why those gas heaters are still there is because even with those wind and solar numbers, it can’t replace the amount of energy those gas heaters are using - and Germany is already charging insane rates for electrical power. And those numbers are peak, during good conditions. There will be lulls in the wind, clouds, etc. coming over and over again.

What then?

Re:Why the West is reluctant to deny Russian banks access to... by pgeorgi on Friday February 25, 2022 @03:34PM (#30472030)
The main reason _this_ house (in Germany) still heats with gas is because it's nigh-impossible to book the professionals who can install a heat pump and modernize the rest of the heating system in a sensible time frame.

As mentioned by another comment: even if we were to send all that gas used for heating into gas turbines instead and use the generated electricity to operate the heat pumps, we'd use less gas (because it's using environmental heat energy in addition to the intrinsic energy of the gas).

That brings the bonus that we could look into alternative power sources (of whatever kind: I'm sure France would be more than happy to assist bringing up nuclear reactors again, although that's unlikely to happen in Germany for a whole bunch of reasons) when gas is difficult to obtain because electricity is electricity.

But apparently we don't have a sufficient number of people who could do the installation, plus it'd be expensive, and even discounting that, I'm not sure if "We need 12 million heat pump systems. Next quarter?" is something that could _possibly_ work even under normal circumstances (nevermind the supply chain issues we're currently dealing with globally).

That's why I brought up the 150k installed units per year: There's probably room for improvement (I've been thinking that there must be a very profitable career in heating installations), but even if we can install 600k a year, we're still looking at 20 years before we get all the old cruft converted.

Re:Why the West is reluctant to deny Russian banks access to... by AYBABTME on Friday February 25, 2022 @03:58PM (#30472305)
It seems to me that the whole gas debacle between Germany and Russia has been foretold for the last 20 years. That'd have been a good time to start booking the contractor. And I'm really baffled as to why Germany is shutting down nuclear power plants _in the midst of all this_. Is the public opinion's balance so much in disfavour of nuclear vs. peace in Europe?
Re:Why the West is reluctant to deny Russian banks access to... by pgeorgi on Friday February 25, 2022 @04:26PM (#30472562)
The plan to shut down nuclear power plants is from 2000 and ended a (for German terms) fierce societal debate. It was delayed a bit in 2010 (and then un-delayed a smaller bit in 2011 following the Fukushima incident), but the plan has been in force for 22 years.

By now, even the power plant operators aren't very interested in keeping them running for longer because they already planned to turn them off and dismantle them. Keeping them on for longer means a significant investment to them, for unknown benefit as the societal rift will inevitably break open again. They might invest (so they can continue to operate things safely), delay the dismantling (probably also costs money because they likely started hiring companies already), only to be told a year later to shut things down again (all that money for nothing).

An issue in that has been that renewables build-up has been all but sabotaged politically in the last years, and that storage technology didn't develop as well as estimated, making gas necessary as a peak load compensation mechanism, "hopefully" temporarily. Gas turbine operators are whining for years that they're operating at a loss but they're forced to continue to operate (getting the loss just about compensated I think) to ensure the grid's safety.

Other than _that_, gas is mostly used for heating which is a distinct system. As such, any consideration of "nuclear vs. gas dependency in Germany" is something that seems to be mostly discussed outside Germany: No matter how many nuclear power plants we keep up, gas boilers just don't run on electricity (except for their controller module).

As for booking a contractor 20 years ago: There are funding programmes to encourage folks to go for heat pump systems and other modernizations. The last electricity heating system that was widely deployed in Germany _was_ horribly inefficient, which is no surprise with technology that was already old in the 70s, and the idea "electricity for heating is a waste" has stuck. The political sabotage that I mentioned extended to not really caring about correcting such misconceptions.

Re:Why the West is reluctant to deny Russian banks access to... by vkou on Friday February 25, 2022 @04:26PM (#30472564)
When it comes to dollars and cents, I think the past few days have made it clear that Western Europe cares a lot less about peace in Eastern Europe than the hopes and prayers rhetoric would have you think.
Re:Why the West is reluctant to deny Russian banks access to... by lazide on Friday February 25, 2022 @03:55PM (#30472261)
Let’s say all non-trivial natural gas usage (for simplicity) is heating, and due to heat pumps you could reduce energy required to 1/3 of the energy currently provided by burning natural gas (and at 100% efficiency)

you’re still looking at about 4 trillion kWh of energy/yr (possibly a month - hard to get good data) that would be needed to do that switch.

most of it during winter.

Germany currently produces a little over 500 billion kWh of electrical energy a year.

So to replace natural gas for heating in this scenario, Germany would need to produce 9x the electrical power it currently produces. Most of it during the winter.

And not having enough production would kill people.

It isn’t a matter of not having enough heat pumps or people to install them, that’s just the immediate road block if you individually wanted to switch.

It’s a fundamental economic issue that would require investment on a scale heretofore not considered outside of world wars. And maybe not even then.

Right now, we don’t even know of a storage technology that could even work at that scale, let alone what it would cost to do it.

And depending on which way climate changes go, the size of storage needs to be potentially arbitrarily large. The more uncertainty you have, the larger it needs to be.

Unlike a fossil fuel, we don’t have (essentially) arbitrarily large reserves we can pull from, it all has to be made and stored in advance by the same infrastructure that produces your normal production.

Re:Why the West is reluctant to deny Russian banks access to... by pgeorgi on Friday February 25, 2022 @04:36PM (#30472647)
As I wrote: Even turning gas into electricity would reduce the amount of gas required. Which might make buying from other suppliers more realistic. Or reduce the amount of cash sent towards Russian military spending. Plus, no matter what is ultimately done, we'd gain flexibility.

The "gas boiler in every second home" scheme locks us into gas to a degree that even "a natural gas burning turbine in every city" wouldn't. But locked in we are.

The push for renewables or the rejection of nuclear power plants is orthogonal to why Germany is stuck with Russian gas.

Re:Why the West is reluctant to deny Russian banks access to... by lazide on Friday February 25, 2022 @06:00PM (#30473419)
It would trade gas burned with capex - and that capex is very, very high, as you’d need to spend more on turbines and electrical transmission gear than all of Germany’s existing electrical grid. Many times over most likely.
Re:Why the West is reluctant to deny Russian banks access to... by tempnow987 on Friday February 25, 2022 @03:34PM (#30472032)
There is absolutely no chance you can heat germany on solar in the middle of a cold night in winter. None.

According to the analysis, the price of electricity in Germany, adjusted for purchasing power, is 45-dollar cents (39-euro cents) per kilowatt-hour. This not only puts German electricity costs as the 15th highest of all the countries included, but it also means Germany has the third-highest electricity prices in the EU... The data included in the study refers to the second quarter of 2021, and so does not take into account the surge in prices consumers in Germany are currently facing.

or look here:

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...

Re:Why the West is reluctant to deny Russian banks access to... by pgeorgi on Friday February 25, 2022 @03:42PM (#30472121)
As mentioned in the other follow-up: Even using gas turbines + heat pumps would reduce the required amount of gas due to using environmental energy.

And then there's wind (as mentioned: we just broke records. In winter. At night.), and water (to some minor degree). And theoretically a comeback of nuclear (won't happen). Or hydrogen storage. Or fusion, or whatever. The good thing about electricity is that it doesn't care where it comes from, and there are many different kinds of sources.

On the other hand: Natural gas boilers require natural gas, and so far we don't have methods to synthesize it from electricity - or anything else - at scale. The main argument in their favor is that they're installed: a pretty important argument though.

Re:Why the West is reluctant to deny Russian banks access to... by ZeroGravitas on Friday February 25, 2022 @04:12PM (#30472433)
Germany is actually a world leader in making climate friendly biogas.

https://www.worldbiogasassociation.org/wp-content/uploads/20...

But yeah, big picture, gas is a poor choice for home heating, and should be phased out for health, cost and carbon reasons.

Re:Why the West is reluctant to deny Russian banks access to... by lazide on Friday February 25, 2022 @03:58PM (#30472310)
Peak production (broke a new record) != worst case production.

When the consequence of not having enough production is people literally freezing to death, worse case production matters.

Re:Why the West is reluctant to deny Russian banks access to... by ZeroGravitas on Saturday February 26, 2022 @06:03AM (#30476659)
Pretty much the same order of countries as this list of cigarette prices:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/415034/cigarette-prices-...

I wonder what secret tech Bulgaria, Poland, Hungary and other nations at the bottom of both lists have that makes both electrical power and cigarettes so cheap to produce? You'd think their neighbours would ask them to install it for them in order to access cheap electricity and cigarettes.

Re:Why the West is reluctant to deny Russian banks access to... by sneak on Friday February 25, 2022 @07:32PM (#30474174)
There is also (last I looked, in Berlin) a double digit percentage tax on electrical power usage. Not sure what the tax is on gas, because my building didn't have it.