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Re:Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian respon... by whatshisface on Friday February 25, 2022 @02:25PM (#30471138)
America runs NATO and does not have a perfect history of only getting involved in justified wars itself. Being a NATO member means that other members can drag you in to something you wouldn't join yourself. For example, NATO helped in Iraq and Afghanistan (in small ways, by supporting the US-supported local forces), which weren't going to attack France for example any time soon.

What Russia has done is made the odds of NATO dragging you in to something (which hasn't really ever happened in a major way) look much smaller than the odds of them invading you (which is happening to a NATO nonmember today).

Re:Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian respon... by tedivm on Friday February 25, 2022 @02:43PM (#30471415)
I think part of this is that the non-US NATO countries basically let the US run it. The only NATO countries which seem to meet the financial and military requirements of the organization are the ones on Russia's border. So the US pays the money to support the alliance while Germany uses the money it's saved to purchase gas and oil from Russia so it can close down it's nuclear plants.
Re:Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian respon... by whatshisface on Friday February 25, 2022 @02:49PM (#30471519)
I have wondered if the NATO system would be better-designed if it had specific defense requirements from all countries, but I presently think its current structure (where Germany is allowed to reduce military spending because they're surrounded on all sides by other NATO countries) prevents a worse outcome, where they'd find it in their interest to leave NATO and get the buffer states anyway. Voluntary multilateral treaties like this only work when every signatory believes they're benefiting, and if you asked Germany to raise defense spending they'd respond with "okay, and how will we be compensated?"

Then, you'd say "nevermind, I'd rather spend it on my own armed forces," and you arrive back at NATO.

Re:Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian respon... by ROTMetro on Friday February 25, 2022 @03:14PM (#30471824)
It does have specific requirements. It just doesn't meet them.
Re:Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian respon... by voisin on Friday February 25, 2022 @03:28PM (#30471982)
No penalties for not meeting requirements sounds like these requirements are suggestions.
Re:Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian respon... by xoa on Friday February 25, 2022 @02:50PM (#30471524)
>Being a NATO member means that other members can drag you in to something you wouldn't join yourself.

Of course? That's the entire point of it isn't it? NATO is primarily about "dragging the United States into European war" if you want to phrase it that way, though equally the point is that the threat of doing so prevents a European war involving alliance members in the first place. But the USA is at absolutely zero risk of direct invasion by Russia (or China for that matter). America is the only nation on the planet right now with any significant conventional power projection and logistics capability. NATO members all certainly kind of hope America would nonetheless come anyway.

Along with that is the risk that they'd be called on in turn, so that's a tradeoff but an obvious and straightforward one. When you sign up for insurance, you constantly must pay even if you never collect. Indeed most people very much hope never to need to collect. Hedging against black swan events costs money with by definition a low likelihood of return, but can be worth it anyway at a high enough cost (particularly since the insurers themselves have incentive to prevent rather then react).

Re:Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian respon... by olliej on Friday February 25, 2022 @02:46PM (#30471466)
Yeah, America's track record of invading countries without cause is kind of appalling over the last 60 odd years.

Similarly their use of International Criminal Court for non-americans followed by claims that the ICC should not be used as it is not-elected when America has been caught committing war crimes.

America has not done a whole lot to help its own reputation in these matters :-/

Re:Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian respon... by jdminhbg on Friday February 25, 2022 @02:41PM (#30471385)
> NATO helped in Iraq and Afghanistan

A number of NATO countries joined both Iraq wars, but not all. The only one where Article V was invoked and NATO was officially involved was Afghanistan.

Re:Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian respon... by dragonwriter on Friday February 25, 2022 @02:45PM (#30471446)
NATO was officially involved in several post-invasion support missions in Iraq; not every NATO mission (not even combat missions) results from Article 5.
Re:Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian respon... by jjtheblunt on Friday February 25, 2022 @02:38PM (#30471340)
american here: excellent answer and i'd say most here agree
Re:Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian respon... by gerikson on Friday February 25, 2022 @02:42PM (#30471394)
Sweden was a participant in ISAF too.