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Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by brimble on Friday February 25, 2022 @11:55AM (#30469313)
Expecting people to know meta tags is ridiculous for all but very specialized roles. It's the kind of thing you rarely touch once it's set up. I'd expect most developers to be able to guess correct or near-correct answers just from context, which I guess is a test of a certain kind of reading ability. So I suppose that's some kind of signal. But this stuff changes often enough and there's enough subtlety, and very few people touch it very often, that you should be consulting a guide or reference most every time anyway.

This is probably a test of some useful ability for developers to have, but it's not knowledge of these things in particular.

Also:

> <meta name="theme-color" [...]

> This is the proper web standards-esque equivalent of the Apple status bar color meta tag. It tells the browser to theme the surrounding UI.

Oh, so this is the horrible thing that's infecting my desktop Safari and making it hideous and weird and inconsistent? Interesting.

Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by iamben on Friday February 25, 2022 @12:26PM (#30469693)
> Expecting people to know meta tags is ridiculous for all but very specialized roles.

Devil's advocate - is it? You're right, this stuff rarely gets touched, and (aside from changing the colours in the bit you hate!) it's the kind of stuff I'd normally boilerplate between projects.

But if you're interviewing for a role and you're not giving them a coding test (yet?) but looking to see how curious they are, how disparate their knowledge is, or just (as you say) how good someone is at guessing from context - isn't this a fun experiment?

I'd imagine just seeing how people deal with the answers gives you a good idea as to how they'd approach something when you're working together. Are they guessing? Confidently wrong? Seen it before but don't know what it is? Can roughly talk around it and what it does without exactly knowing? Proficient in it all (and how that relates to what they have or haven't said on their CV - have they under or over sold themselves?!)?

I assume you could apply the same sort of test to any domain - test someone on something closely related you don't necessarily need to know and see how they react.

Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by tshaddox on Friday February 25, 2022 @04:06PM (#30472379)
It's really just the same kinda thing that fills most coding interviews (that aren't just pure live coding challenges): the interviewer is testing for something that isn't directly relevant to the role, because of course in the real role you'd be able to (and should!) research all the appropriate meta tags you should have on your web site, but since the interviewer deems it too difficult to actually directly test for the ability to do the job, they instead test for things that surely the candidate must have ran into before and has a good enough memory to at least have a conversation so that I can subjectively judge how skilled the candidate is.
Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by bri3d on Friday February 25, 2022 @03:24PM (#30471940)
The problem with these "present a tangental question / loosely unfamiliar but similar" questions is that they become useless when a candidate does know the answer as memorized trivia. At that point you're looking for a signal about "what does the candidate do when presented with something familiar but unknown" but receiving "can the candidate regurgitate an answer."

Of course you can then ask a different question, follow-ups, and so on, but you're so far off baseline compared to most candidates that the question starts to become useless.

Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by thomasahle on Friday February 25, 2022 @03:54PM (#30472246)
I don't think the point is that every interviewer should ask about Twitters source code, and every interviewee should memorize it.

The point is to ask a few randomly sampled knowledge questions to measure how well rounded the candidate is. Taking the "first 10 lines of Twitter" is just one way to sample such questions.

Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by TrickardRixx on Friday February 25, 2022 @03:37PM (#30472066)
If you want to know how curious I am, ask me. If you want to know how disparate my knowledge is, ask me. If you want to know how good I am at guessing from context, ask me. If you're asking about meta-tag trivia, all you're going to find out is if I know meta-tag trivia. I know myself way better than any interviewer possibly can. If you don't trust me to evaluate myself, then you shouldn't be hiring me into a creative, professional, self-directed position.
Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by rileymat2 on Friday February 25, 2022 @04:23PM (#30472539)
“ I know myself way better than any interviewer possibly can. If you don't trust me to evaluate myself, then you shouldn't be hiring me into a creative, professional, self-directed position.”

I am not sure this is well grounded in the studies of human psychology.

Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by munk-a on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:10PM (#30472954)
I think it's extremely fair to not trust people to evaluate themselves when doing open hiring - for networked candidates you can usually relax some assumptions and for very senior/niche positions there's usually ample street knowledge available... but in these cases you're relying on a third party for some level of vetting. I would never solely trust a second party during hiring unless I had some method to confirm at least some of what they're saying.

A lot of companies are far too hesitant to trust employees, but blind trust is unwise - you can end up with an employee that either wastes three months salary or actively causes damage.

Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by rileymat2 on Friday February 25, 2022 @05:23PM (#30473080)
I think we may be talking about slightly different things.

There is a ton of well researched psychology work on self deception, confirmation bias, it goes on and on.

Asking about the things that the OP was mentioning are deep psychological traps. Perhaps the OP has deep self awareness, but that does not apply to the general candidate or human.

Our blind spots of our own actions and behaviors are profound.

Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by thomasahle on Friday February 25, 2022 @03:56PM (#30472281)
In my experience, lots of people apply for jobs they aren't qualified for. How does I as the interviewer know which candidates I can trust to assess themselves and which I can't?
Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by munk-a on Friday February 25, 2022 @04:31PM (#30472609)
I mean, a fair number will walk in the door talking about C-pound. A number of them will exclaim "What wizardry is that!" when you open up the developer console (or accuse you of hacking). Just do your best to sus out obvious lemons and fix the rest in post (i.e. figure out if they're full of crap during their probationary period).

If you have specific pieces of technology you're working with and want to interview about then take an afternoon and just code up some bizarre snippets to go through with them - add a few mistakes they should be able to catch and just talk through their process.

I honestly don't think opening up a random website and asking about some of the source code is a terrible approach... if you're interviewing someone for writing HTML in the 90's - in the modern world all the JS is minified (and likely generated by a framework), the CSS is absolutely atrocious to read (usually also generated) and the HTML is pretty much irrelevant. Use something that's going to be applicable to candidates to judge their understanding - I've always been fond of short puzzles very much unlike this one (it's way too arcane) in PHP `0x5 &$var=['cow' => 6]['cow']`[1] - just blerbs where you can step through some syntax understanding and problem solving at the same time.

An actually good suggestion is to check out a random (ideally mostly self-contained) file from your codebase from a decade ago and step through what's awful about it - all code bases have these, and they're usually still kicking around as active code in production. At one of my more recent interviews they sent me login.php (the one actually in production, which they knew was broken - they had two developers before me which were really overworked) and just asked me to mark up wrong stuff - I found SQL injections, unbound variables, conditions that would result in invalid HTML and broken forms and some terrible decisions from a readability perspective. I spent... maybe an hour on it.

1. https://3v4l.org/85MV3

Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by TrickardRixx on Saturday February 26, 2022 @05:32AM (#30476556)
My point was that you can have a conversation with a candidate instead of using arbitrary trivia that is irrelevant to the job and potentially irrelevant to the human you’re interviewing. If you want to find out about someone’s diversity of knowledge, I think “what’s the most esoteric tech you’ve worked with” or “tell me about a project that taught you the most” are vastly superior conversation starters than meta-tag trivia.
Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by umvi on Friday February 25, 2022 @11:59AM (#30469363)
The author says he doesn't expect perfect answers

> Note that since our technical discussion is a conversation. I don’t expect a perfect answer from anyone. If I hear some right keywords, I know that the candidate knows the concept, and I try to push them in the right direction.

If I were being interviewed, I would probably say "yeah all those meta tags are metadata for various consumers. The apple related ones are probably for tailoring the page for display on apple devices"

Hopefully that's good enough, if I were doing the interview I wouldn't expect more than that.

Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by brimble on Friday February 25, 2022 @12:14PM (#30469539)
Yeah, the post indicates that the author might be Doing It Right, but then there's stuff like:

> Surprisingly, only a few people knew about the dir attribute in my interviews

No. Most of those few people who "knew" it are decent-to-good readers with enough context to figure it out, and in this particular case they probably recognized "ltr", then worked backward to get what "dir" means, and were confident enough about that guess to state it as fact. They did all this in less than a second, because, again, they're decent-to-good readers who had the right context for this particular task. If this had been a made-up attribute you'd have gotten nearly as many people who "knew" it, I guarantee.

This is closer to a web dev reading test than a direct test of knowledge. Which, again, might not actually be a crazy thing to administer.

Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by jspash on Friday February 25, 2022 @01:50PM (#30470706)
But don't underestimate the importance of reading as a skill! It's incredibly frustrating to see devs make stupid mistakes and spend time trying to get something to work when the answer is right in front of their nose.

I see this too often. A developer (usually more towards the junior end) who think they can just chug through any problem. Trying this, then that, then google, then that again. When, if they would just stop and think through the problem - and use their eyes - they would see the solution was there all along.

Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by manuel_w on Friday February 25, 2022 @06:59PM (#30473905)
I sometimes see this with C++ compiler errors. People don't even try to understand them. They just change some random things and copy/paste some snippets from Stack Overflow, and finally request help instead of just investing a few minutes to actually understand what the compiler has problems with. Yes, g++ compiler errors are heard to read, but often the needed information is right there.
Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by filmgirlcw on Friday February 25, 2022 @04:17PM (#30472480)
Totally agree. I’ve definitely made this mistake myself (we all have) and the lesson is definitely to stop, think, read the code and that usually helps with the solution (or at least makes it easier to hone in on what to google)
Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by filmgirlcw on Friday February 25, 2022 @04:15PM (#30472467)
You’re right that this is closer to a reading test than a direct knowledge test, but I don’t think that’s a bad thing.
Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by tedunangst on Friday February 25, 2022 @02:48PM (#30471503)
It's a perfectly cromulent attribute!
Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by johannes1234321 on Friday February 25, 2022 @12:21PM (#30469622)
They don't expect candidates to be able to write the "right" set of tags, but they use them as a basis for discussing different topics and recognizing things and maybe doing educated guesses in the meaning are quite useful skills.
Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by Alex3917 on Friday February 25, 2022 @11:59AM (#30469360)
> It's the kind of thing you rarely touch once it's set up.

Exactly. Surely being able to actually configure the metadata tags on a webpage correctly must be more valuable than being able to remember what the different configuration options do years later, no?

Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by TameAntelope on Friday February 25, 2022 @03:03PM (#30471690)
I think expecting people to know things they really shouldn't, and seeing how they react to that lack of knowledge is a very important part of interviewing.

I assume this isn't the only question OP asks in their interviews, but I think it's got a couple of good outcomes and returns a lot for the length of time it takes to go through.

Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by matth3 on Friday February 25, 2022 @12:40PM (#30469854)
I've not been a frontend dev for well over a decade but I knew the meaning of all these meta tags. Back then I think it'd be pretty rare to find a good frontend developer who couldn't say what these were.

Have things changed so much that knowledge of meta tags is specialist now?

Assuming this interview was for a front end role that is.

Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by krapp on Friday February 25, 2022 @03:18PM (#30471876)
>Have things changed so much that knowledge of meta tags is specialist now?

Yes. More or less all web development now involves generating HTML with a language that compiles to javascript and a framework. No one even looks at, much less directly interacts with, fundamental web code anymore, and HTML has become esoteric "low level" knowledge like assembly language.

Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by matth3 on Friday February 25, 2022 @04:38PM (#30472669)
But we've always generated the html using other languages, still needed to have a pretty decent idea of how it works. I find it hard to believe that's all redundant now in quite the same way knowledge of assembly is when your a python dev for example.

Like take the open graph meta tags for example, for certain websites it'd be a big oversight to leave them out because you never bothered to learn what they were.

I don't know if all this makes for a decent interview. Just blows my mind that people deem it too low level to have to care about, but what do I know anymore, it's been a real long time since I made a web page.

Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by wlesieutre on Friday February 25, 2022 @02:45PM (#30471442)
> Oh, so this is the horrible thing that's infecting my desktop Safari and making it hideous and weird and inconsistent? Interesting.

FYI you can disable the coloring as well as the "compact" layout that mushes the URL bar into the active tab and hides its <title>

https://www.macrumors.com/how-to/safari-macos-turn-off-websi...

Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by brimble on Friday February 25, 2022 @02:48PM (#30471496)
Yeah, reading TFA prompted me to finally go figure out how to do that :-)

Much better. No more wild recoloring of my browser chrome because I switched tabs.

> FYI you can disable the coloring as well as the "compact" layout that mushes the URL bar into the active tab and hides its <title>

Did that day-1 with the new Safari. That part was wholly intolerable, not just ugly and annoying.

Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by AdrianB1 on Friday February 25, 2022 @06:14PM (#30473530)
I am not a developer, never was, but I know most of the stuff in these lines. If I know about it, I expect a front-end developer to know a lot more - the developer is not a monkey pushing buttons in a framework to get a banana and web development frameworks should not be black boxes that nobody using it understands how it works and why. That is a level of superficiality that is terrifying.
Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by bdcravens on Friday February 25, 2022 @01:04PM (#30470166)
It's not a test of their meta tag knowledge, it's a test of how well they can speak to concepts with some context. (For instance, I don't really do anything with Open Graph, and I don't know the meta tag off the top of my head, but I spotted it in this example)
Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by kemar on Friday February 25, 2022 @03:03PM (#30471694)
Re:Explain the first 10 lines of Twitter's source code to me by ProAm on Friday February 25, 2022 @12:03PM (#30469405)
And this is for a furniture rental business...? I think there is a easier way to determine if a candidate has the minimum technical skills required for the job besides a diminutive interrogation about Twitter.