News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Times are great for programmers now. How does it end? by ggm on Monday February 21, 2022 @05:42AM (#30414199)
I'm not entirely sure this is more than a matter of degree. I liked most of your point but I think you devalue aspects of this mode of work discussion. It's important to discuss work and holding yourself to account in a shared endeavour is not of itself bad. I have little doubt it's also used as passive aggressive bullying sometimes.
Re:Times are great for programmers now. How does it end? by pdimitar on Monday February 21, 2022 @06:04AM (#30414344)
That's the problem. Anecdotally, for many programmers I spoke with over a 20 years of career, it's not "can be used as passive aggressive bullying sometimes"; it's "almost always". :(
Re:Times are great for programmers now. How does it end? by hkt on Monday February 21, 2022 @06:17AM (#30414453)
Likewise. Pretty much everywhere I've worked uses standup as a way of bullying people into working more hours, with a couple of unusually relaxed exceptions. It is a far cry from the origins of agile as a means of programmers defending themselves against a hostile organisation, as it was originally. Now agile is the hostile organisation.
Re:Times are great for programmers now. How does it end? by pdimitar on Monday February 21, 2022 @06:50AM (#30414745)
I think at this point it should be common wisdom that anything and everything can and will be adapted to yet again introduce a power imbalance. The people who supposedly rule people -- a-hem, sorry, they manage them (heh) -- don't like it when the worker has influence of the process and especially the costs and schedules.

So they'll co-opt any newfangled trend into plain old serfdom. And they do.

As another commenter said, we should take page from the lawyers. A lot of them manage to convert bosses into paying subscribing customers.

Re:Times are great for programmers now. How does it end? by therealdrag0 on Monday February 21, 2022 @04:51PM (#30421102)
I’ve never seen bullying in stand-up? So I’m skeptical of this “almost always”.

In fact many of the teams I’ve working are fine with people skipping standup if they have any reason to. Currently I skip like half of my teams standups.

Re:Times are great for programmers now. How does it end? by pdimitar on Monday February 21, 2022 @04:55PM (#30421146)
Everywhere I've been, ever, stand-ups weren't optional.
Re:Times are great for programmers now. How does it end? by therealdrag0 on Monday February 21, 2022 @05:14PM (#30421354)
That’s interesting. I’ve run into this a lot online. Its obvious in retrospect but often taken for granted that people can have such diverse experiences that really influence our opinions and views of the world.
Re:Times are great for programmers now. How does it end? by krageon on Monday February 21, 2022 @07:40AM (#30415229)
The nice thing about anecdotes is that they don't say anything. For example: I have heard this for none of the programmers I've spoken with over a career of a little over half that time.
Re:Times are great for programmers now. How does it end? by pdimitar on Tuesday February 22, 2022 @12:15AM (#30424251)
Anecdotes don't cancel each other out. They are all true at the same time.

So yes they do say a lot, maybe not what you believe but they still do say things.