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Re:Google Drive users stung by macOS '.DS_Store' copyright i... by gerikson on Sunday February 20, 2022 @08:22AM (#30405465)
>Dropbox has adopted a policy of terminating the accounts of users who repeatedly infringe copyright or whose accounts are subject to multiple infringement allegations. If you repeatedly share files that infringe others’ copyrights, your account will be terminate

https://help.dropbox.com/accounts-billing/security/copyright...

> There needs to be a sharp distinction between files for your own use and files that are shared with the world

Even simpler: do not upload copyrighted materials to Dropbox, Google Drive, etc.

Use a local backup if needed, use sneakernet to transfer files.

Re:Google Drive users stung by macOS '.DS_Store' copyright i... by cesarb on Sunday February 20, 2022 @08:52AM (#30405668)
> Even simpler: do not upload copyrighted materials to Dropbox, Google Drive, etc.

Everything is copyrighted. The comment you just wrote is automatically copyrighted. "Do not upload copyrighted materials" means you can only upload things made over a century ago (which either were made before copyright existed, or were copyrighted but their copyright expired). Want to upload your vacation photos? Too bad, they were made this year, so they are copyrighted, and will be copyrighted for several decades after you're already dead.

Re:Google Drive users stung by macOS '.DS_Store' copyright i... by waffle_maniac on Sunday February 20, 2022 @09:49AM (#30406108)
If our comments are copyrighted by us can HN legally refuse to remove them (like they often do)?
Re:Google Drive users stung by macOS '.DS_Store' copyright i... by krallja on Sunday February 20, 2022 @10:12AM (#30406297)
No, you have licensed your content to Y Combinator. It’s in the TOS:

> By uploading any User Content you hereby grant and will grant Y Combinator and its affiliated companies a nonexclusive, worldwide, royalty free, fully paid up, transferable, sublicensable, perpetual, irrevocable license to copy, display, upload, perform, distribute, store, modify and otherwise use your User Content for any Y Combinator-related purpose in any form, medium or technology now known or later developed.

Re:Google Drive users stung by macOS '.DS_Store' copyright i... by rectang on Sunday February 20, 2022 @08:47AM (#30405631)
> Even simpler: do not upload copyrighted materials to Dropbox, Google Drive, etc.

This is more difficult than you are making it sound. Considering the way most people use their computers, the only way to avoid copyright infringement entirely in your use of cloud storage is not to use cloud storage the way you use your local drive but instead to assess every last file that you upload as if you were publishing it on a public website.

Sure, you can avoid uploading pirated movies (perhaps by never downloading any of them in the first place). But in fact, original works are typically copyrighted by default as soon as they are created, even if the copyright is not formally registered — and we depend on a patchwork quilt of implicit and explicit licenses for viewing and use of files on the internet. Have you ever saved a quote from somewhere? That was probably copyrighted; your use is probably legitimate, but a naive algorithm might not think so.

Re:Google Drive users stung by macOS '.DS_Store' copyright i... by fps-hero on Sunday February 20, 2022 @09:59AM (#30406180)
Honestly, the situation is far worse and nuanced than that. You can not determine whether content is infringing on copy write because of content alone. Copyright depends on context.

Situation 1. You buy a PDF ebook. You have legal rights the person use of this file, but you upload it to your cloud storage and it gets flagged. You cannot determine if the intent of uploading the PDF was to facilitate pirating, or because you have a pirates copy, or because you have the rights to it.

Situation 2. You hire a wedding photographer, and they supply you with photos that you do not own the right to distribute because they retain copyright. This is the same as the above situation, but personalised. Would you like your cloud provider to delete any file, including your wedding photo backups, because it with matches a hash in a database?

Situation 3. Copyright fair use. Much has been written on the subject, but this is where copyright falls over in a digital age. Fair use is complete indistinguishable from piracy from a flagging files by content perspective.

Re:Google Drive users stung by macOS '.DS_Store' copyright i... by birdyrooster on Sunday February 20, 2022 @12:31PM (#30407376)
If you modified the tags a little, wouldn't that keep the song from matching checksum of another file?
Re:Google Drive users stung by macOS '.DS_Store' copyright i... by rectang on Sunday February 20, 2022 @01:02PM (#30407685)
Fooling the algorithm is not a robust solution. Infringement-detection algos get better hit rates all the time (fewer false negatives, although often at the price of more false positives) — consider all the work that has gone into detecting musical duplicates even when resampled, pitch/time-shifted, rerecorded, etc.

The robust solution is to treat files which are redistributed and therefore trigger copyright provisions completely differently from files which are not redistributed.

Furthermore, for the purposes of punitive action, sharing a copyrighted file with a limited whitelist of other users might reasonably be treated as a less of a screwup than making a file accessible to the entire internet. And therefore it should not be frictionless to share a file with the internet.

Re:Google Drive users stung by macOS '.DS_Store' copyright i... by PaulDavisThe1st on Sunday February 20, 2022 @01:51PM (#30408201)
> to assess every last file that you upload as if you were publishing it on a public website.

IMO, that's precisely what you should be doing.

Re:Google Drive users stung by macOS '.DS_Store' copyright i... by Spooky23 on Sunday February 20, 2022 @08:53AM (#30405670)
All files are copyrighted. In fact, my .DS_Store files are generated by my computer against my content and belong to me.

Some 10x engineer at google write code that flags it, how is that my problem?

Re:Google Drive users stung by macOS '.DS_Store' copyright i... by cperciva on Sunday February 20, 2022 @10:54AM (#30406623)
Not all files are copyrighted. For example, files which are not creative works -- including those which are mechanically created -- are not subject to copyright.
Re:Google Drive users stung by macOS '.DS_Store' copyright i... by marcan_42 on Sunday February 20, 2022 @11:11AM (#30406755)
Yup, it's a common misconception that everything is copyrighted. Copyright requires creativity. An empty text file/image is not copyrightable, the pile of #include directives at the top of a C file is not copyrightable, etc. You need to create something that isn't just mechanical, regardless of whether the computer does it or you do it manually. At the point where creative decisions start to influence the process, that's where copyright comes into play.
Re:Google Drive users stung by macOS '.DS_Store' copyright i... by monocasa on Sunday February 20, 2022 @11:35AM (#30406946)
> the pile of #include directives at the top of a C file is not copyrightable

That used to be the thought, but Google v. Oracle ended with de mininimis defenses struck down, and imports still copyrightable, just Google was afforded a fair use defense to copying.

Re:Google Drive users stung by macOS '.DS_Store' copyright i... by marcan_42 on Sunday February 20, 2022 @01:32PM (#30408027)
I thought Google v. Oracle was about API structure, not imports. While I obviously don't think API structure should be copyrightable, we clearly can't extrapolate from that to a list of imports. The former is something chosen by an environment designer and needed for compatibility; the latter is just boilerplate every user of a given environment needs to write.

There is certainly creativity in API design, it's just that the right to interoperability and the utilitarian aspect should trump any copyright claim on the API itself. But there is no creativity in writing imports; you aren't making any material decisions, you're just doing something the compiler requires you to do.

Re:Google Drive users stung by macOS '.DS_Store' copyright i... by monocasa on Sunday February 20, 2022 @02:59PM (#30408792)
To be copyrightable, you still need to have verbatim components that are copied (or 'mechanically' meaning algorithmically transformed from verbatim components). Abstract concepts like API design still can't be have copyright protections directly per se; it's a concept as a proxy of the copyright over the "declaring code" of import and export definitions. That's why I brought up how de minimis defenses were also struck down; the next direction people go is saying 'well, it's just one line to import the library, surely that's not enough'. The fair use defense afforded to Google for a very abstract interpretation of interoperability is sort of the last bastion we're left at the moment.

But as someone who's a big fan of your work, I'd implore you to not trust myself or your knowledge on this and hit up a lawyer. You're close enough to the edge of legality with a lot of your work that I'd hate to see you stifled by a minor misunderstanding here that could have been avoided. Google v. Oracle ended better than it could have, but AFAICT still heavily complicated RE work and independent implementations. It made a lot of this murkier, and being at least internally consistent with a legal theory here could make a bad situation at least a little better by leaving you with more options.

Re:Google Drive users stung by macOS '.DS_Store' copyright i... by marcan_42 on Sunday February 20, 2022 @07:48PM (#30410746)
> But as someone who's a big fan of your work, I'd implore you to not trust myself or your knowledge on this and hit up a lawyer. You're close enough to the edge of legality with a lot of your work that I'd hate to see you stifled by a minor misunderstanding here that could have been avoided.

I do not retain a lawyer personally, but I inform myself of legal opinions around this field. It's why I felt comfortable enough to write this:

https://asahilinux.org/copyright/

Ultimately though, once you stay clear of obviously problematic actions, the question of whether you're going to get in trouble boils down to whether the company you're up against is evil, for better or for worse. Given that Apple isn't going around suing jailbreakers and Hackintoshers, I'm not too worried that they'll go after us as long as we don't do anything stupid.

Conversely, I got frivolously sued by Sony for talking about a security vulnerability in the PS3... and yeah, I had to get a lawyer for that one.

In the end, once you get yourself deep enough into legal analysis around these subjects, you come to the conclusion that everyone violates copyright in little ways, all the time, and the world would grind to a halt if we stopped. The system is broken and relies on the goodwill of the people participating to not completely collapse. For example, I've previously mentioned how copying most example code you find online, e.g. in places like Stack Overflow, is a copyright violation unless you adhere strictly to the license (did you know SO content is licensed under CC-BY-SA?). Posting third party code snippets to most services, e.g. Twitter, is a copyright violation due to incompatibility between the license and the ToS requirements of the site. And so on.

Re:Google Drive users stung by macOS '.DS_Store' copyright i... by maratc on Sunday February 20, 2022 @12:14PM (#30407249)
As far as I remember the SCotUS verdict was "we don't want to say if it's copyrightable or not, but if it were copyritable it would fall under fair use".
Re:Google Drive users stung by macOS '.DS_Store' copyright i... by monocasa on Sunday February 20, 2022 @12:25PM (#30407328)
And the appeals court said that it was copyrightable, so by not saying anything the supreme court let the appeals court ruling stand on that point.
Re:Google Drive users stung by macOS '.DS_Store' copyright i... by maratc on Sunday February 20, 2022 @12:32PM (#30407377)
That’s an interesting detail, thanks.
Re:Google Drive users stung by macOS '.DS_Store' copyright i... by monocasa on Sunday February 20, 2022 @11:38AM (#30406966)
Sort of. Works mechanically derived from copyrightable works are still copyrightable.
Re:Google Drive users stung by macOS '.DS_Store' copyright i... by gaius_baltar on Sunday February 20, 2022 @02:31PM (#30408522)
> Even simpler: do not upload copyrighted materials to Dropbox, Google Drive, etc.

Do not store a single "1" in a file, too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30060405

Re:Google Drive users stung by macOS '.DS_Store' copyright i... by djsweet on Sunday February 20, 2022 @08:44AM (#30405613)
> Even simpler: do not upload copyrighted materials to Dropbox, Google Drive, etc.

As the article illustrates, it’s not actually that simple. Cloud services that terminate accounts (and probably instantly delete everything, to comply with GDPR, CCPA, etc.) for perceived copyright infringements will always and necessarily suffer from a false positive rate.

We’ll likely never truly learn what this false positive rate is, but that it will always exist is reason enough to give pause to the thought that services should “just terminate their account” if they think it’s infringing on intellectual property laws.

The only good answer here is an unqualified “Use a local backup”. The terms of use for non-business cloud storage absolve the providers of all responsibility for data loss, even when they have incorrectly taken punitive action against you.

Re:Google Drive users stung by macOS '.DS_Store' copyright i... by chordalkeyboard on Sunday February 20, 2022 @08:40AM (#30405587)
> Even simpler: do not upload copyrighted materials to Dropbox, Google Drive, etc.

it is absurd for copyright to prevent a legitimate user from storing media on a cloud filesystem.

Re:Google Drive users stung by macOS '.DS_Store' copyright i... by polski-g on Sunday February 20, 2022 @12:36PM (#30407416)
What if you are authorized to have said copyrighted works?