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Re:Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act by x3n0ph3n3 on Monday February 14, 2022 @06:54PM (#30340385)
All government mandates are enforced at the barrel of a gun.
Re:Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act by jbay808 on Monday February 14, 2022 @07:18PM (#30340651)
This sounds scary, but is it a bad thing?

It depends on the mandate but the gun barrel is generally at the end of a long chain of escalating non-cooperation that starts with a sternly worded letter.

Some governments are more trigger-happy than others, but at least in gentler societies, to get to the point where you're looking at a gun barrel, you'd probably have to respond somewhere along that chain with significant violence yourself.

In societies where you are allowed to carry a gun, the government having an even bigger gun is rather implied by the word enforced, because a mandate couldn't be called enforced if the police could only hand sternly-worded letters to you while you ignore it and shot at them.

Re:Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act by CogitoCogito on Monday February 14, 2022 @07:02PM (#30340491)
> All government mandates are enforced at the barrel of a gun.

So is enforcement of contracts between private parties. Are you against private property as well?

Re:Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act by mwint on Monday February 14, 2022 @07:08PM (#30340540)
You're drawing a false equivalence between "contracts between private parties" and "private properties"

By and large, the government does not come take away your freedom for breach of private party contracts. There are some exceptions, where we wrote law (government mandate) elevating some types of private party contract.

But generally, no, me violating your NDA won't escalate to the government shooting me, no matter how uncooperative I am.

Re:Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act by jml7c5 on Monday February 14, 2022 @07:25PM (#30340722)
If the defendant is ordered to pay damages and refuses, then the government does step in eventually, doesn't it? A continued refusal to comply eventually leads to arrest. That does not necessarily involve a gun, but presumably parent commenter is using the phrase for rhetorical effect.

Ultimately, enforcing (almost) any law does come down to use of force if the guilty party is intransigent enough. Exceptions are when some thing can be "snatched" away and held truly inaccessible to the guilty party, such that they cannot possibly retrieve it.

Re:Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act by mwint on Monday February 14, 2022 @07:52PM (#30341023)
Wage garnishment is a pretty effective way to collect civil judgements sans violence, I think.

Not sure what happens if you have a civil judgement entered against you and then quit having income. (Not reporting income is probably a real Crime, and they’d go after you for that)

Re:Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act by gruez on Monday February 14, 2022 @08:03PM (#30341131)
>If the defendant is ordered to pay damages and refuses, then the government does step in eventually, doesn't it? A continued refusal to comply eventually leads to arrest.

1. debtor's prison isn't a thing anymore

2. look up "judgement-proof"

Re:Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act by naasking on Monday February 14, 2022 @07:10PM (#30340555)
Contracts are entered into voluntarily. Mandates are forcefully imposed by a majority onto a minority.
Re:Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act by quocanh on Monday February 14, 2022 @07:09PM (#30340550)
No one says that the barrel isn't necessary. Just that it's there and we should be judicious about when we want to apply it.
Re:Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act by amscanne on Monday February 14, 2022 @07:08PM (#30340538)
No they aren’t. You must go to the government via the legal system, since they are the only one authorized to use force.
Re:Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act by wk_end on Monday February 14, 2022 @07:16PM (#30340630)
Are we talking about "first order enforcement" or not?

If we are, neither private contracts nor vaccine mandates are directly enforced at the barrel of a gun - the RCMP aren't busting down people's doors to shoot them for failing to get vaccinated, just as people aren't immediately killed by the feds for violating legal contracts.

If we're talking about how they're ultimately enforced, if all else fails...well, they're both enforced the same way.

Re:Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act by amscanne on Monday February 14, 2022 @07:35PM (#30340827)
The police (who carry guns) have shut down events for mandate violations in Canada, and arrested people. (There was a particularly stubborn anti-vax pastor in Alberta IIRC.)

For private disputes, it’s also not uncommon to have an armed officer help enforcement. Consider an extremely common private contract dispute - an eviction - where the police may come to remove the tenant.

The “barrel of a gun” is of course a metaphor, but first order enforcement can be closer than you think.

Re:Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act by wk_end on Monday February 14, 2022 @08:18PM (#30341270)
All you're doing here is arguing with yourself: you agree that the barrel of a gun is, in the final analysis, ultimately used to enforce both vaccine mandates and private contracts. Therefore an opposition to things being enforced at the barrel of a gun alone is an incoherent reason to oppose vaccine mandates and not private property.
Re:Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act by amscanne on Monday February 14, 2022 @09:15PM (#30341782)
Honestly, I’m not sure what point you are arguing here, let alone what you think I am arguing. I’m certainly not opposed to mandates solely because they’re enforced at the barrel of the gun (because yes, obviously that is every law in existence). But since we’ve clearly lost the thread or perhaps we’re mixing each other up, let’s just call it a day.
Re:Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act by brianpan on Monday February 14, 2022 @07:27PM (#30340745)
I don't understand what this argument means. Aren't all rules enforced by whatever incentive or deterrent attached to the rule? Is "No parking from 9pm to 6am" enforced at the barrel of a gun?
Re:Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act by iqanq on Monday February 14, 2022 @07:35PM (#30340829)
Certainly yes. You are fined. If you accumulate several fines, you will eventually be arrested. If you resist the arrest, you will find where the barrel of the gun is ;)
Re:Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act by lalaland1125 on Monday February 14, 2022 @06:58PM (#30340438)
Are you opposed to all vaccine mandates? Including for diseases like measles?
Re:Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act by refurb on Monday February 14, 2022 @07:06PM (#30340520)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3216452/

This is a nice article about immunization requirements in Canada a decade before Covid hit.

In 2011, only 3 provinces had mandates for students and also had plenty of exceptions.

And this is for vaccines with decades of use and highly effective at preventing transmission and disease.

Re:Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act by jleyank on Monday February 14, 2022 @06:57PM (#30340420)
I’ll get shot if I drive without a license and insurance? Damn….
Re:Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act by mwint on Monday February 14, 2022 @07:02PM (#30340481)
For sure. You may get a ticket the first couple times, then they'll take you to jail (where you cannot drive). If you insist on continuing to drive, that means you have to resist going to jail. Resisting going to jail is an excellent way to have force used on you, up to and including guns.

Heck, if the right country wants you in jail for the right reasons, you could flee somewhere else and have the _Air Force_ used against you.

Re:Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act by feanaro on Monday February 14, 2022 @07:02PM (#30340487)
No, but you'll get detained and then you'll like your freedom back so you'll try to walk away, but they won't let you. If you insist, you'll eventually get shot.
Re:Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act by mortenlarsen on Monday February 14, 2022 @07:11PM (#30340576)
Really? Where I live, cops only shoot if necessary, and someone getting away is not a valid reason.

Maybe in some very extreme case they would, but it is better that someone escapes custody than someone (including the suspect dying).

Then again, just a cop drawing a weapon or firing a weapon usually makes the news.

Re:Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act by mwint on Monday February 14, 2022 @07:17PM (#30340631)
So you're saying that, in your region, it's possible to have a warrant (say, for failure to appear at your unpaid-ticket trial) and avoid jail by... running away? Indefinitely?

They won't arrest you the next chance they get (say, when your plate shows up on a scanner)?

I'd propose that avoiding jail indefinitely will eventually lead to violence in any halfway-organized jurisdiction. And if you start shooting, eventually the government will shoot back.

All over a driving misdemeanor. We just assume that reasonable people won't let these things escalate that far, but yes: Every law written is ultimately enforced by a man (or woman) with a gun.

Re:Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act by lovecg on Monday February 14, 2022 @07:39PM (#30340869)
If we’re arguing technicalities, a gun is not strictly speaking required. If it’s you against 20 cops they can just physically subdue you and throw you in jail. At no point they even need to threaten to shoot you. So a threat of physical force - yes. Actual guns and deadly force - not in every situation.
Re:Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act by mortenlarsen on Sunday February 20, 2022 @05:40PM (#30409958)
They will shoot you to defend themselves and others if necessary. But not to prevent you from escaping. They will overpower you if they get the chance.

Bottom line: If you are not a danger to anyone, they will let you escape rather than kill anyone (including you), even if it means you are never brought to justice.

It makes a lot of sense, if you don't have a revenge based justice system.

Re:Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act by aksss on Monday February 14, 2022 @07:06PM (#30340526)
Do it enough, and ignore the authority of the government to require these things of you, and eventually violence will come of it (forcibly ensure your appearance or imprison you, and that force knows no upper limit if you keep resisting).